Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)

[reaperexpress]

It's unusual for a Canadian heavy rail corridor, but it's the global standard for dedicated high-speed rail lines.

Okay but global standard is to not build the entire route as a dedicated high speed line, at least not as part of the initial rollout. The Shinkansen and Alta Velocidad Española are obvious exceptions since they use different track gauges and/or loading gauges than the conventional network.

Many other countries like France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany and Italy build high-speed lines between the cities but use existing railways to reach city centres. It's outrageously expensive to build new railways into the centre of a major city. Eurostar (UK) launched in 1994 using existing railways to reach Waterloo station and it wasn't until 2007 that they opened the dedicated high speed rail tunnel to St Pancras.

 

[micheal_can]

Couldn’t agree more with your concluding statements, I’ve been trying to put it in the right words myself.

The Alto stations gain much more value from intermodal access as opposed to immediate walk-up residences, jobs, and tourism.

It may be possible to affordably deliver a simple few platforms and amenities in the old Ottawa Union Station but it will incur a certain technical debt. Any future connectivity will come at a huge cost due to the constraints of the area.

Montreal and Toronto are obviously different stories as they have massive intermodal hubs in their downtowns. They see tons of traffic already and have room to grow even further through service increases.

What intermodal is available at the existing station that is not available, at a future downtown station.The Rideau station is almost adjacent to the former Union. Intercity buses do not stop at the existing station. The only downside is the tunnel needed.

 

[McGillicuddy]

Intercity buses do not stop at the existing station.

Several intercity bus services, including Ontario Northland, serve the current station. Between the various private operators and the KLM/Air France services to YUL, there are easily 12-15 intercity buses serving the station on any given Friday. (Which, in a post-Greyhound era, is nothing to sneeze at.)

 

[micheal_can]

Several intercity bus services, including Ontario Northland, serve the current station. Between the various private operators and the KLM/Air France services to YUL, there are easily 12-15 intercity buses serving the station on any given Friday. (Which, in a post-Greyhound era, is nothing to sneeze at.)

Oh? I thought they all stopped at some other spot.

In that case, I will retract my support for the downtown station.
So, the only thing that is needed is a tunnel from the LRT station to the main station.

 

[CapitalSeven]

So, the only thing that is needed is a tunnel from the LRT station to the main station.

That doesn't really make much sense, although it could be done. All VIA passengers are at grade level, and the fare gates are as well. They would have to go down to a seemingly non-existent basement, walk 300 feet, then go back up to the fare gates, then down again to the platform. Is it really worthwhile? Presumably they are dressed for whatever the weather is and can survive the 90-second walk between the two stations. A tunnel could reach a new entrance to the eastbound platform, but half of passengers would still need to change levels three times.

If the station is expanded, as it might need to be for ALTO and potentially something more formal for buses, it could grow towards the LRT and reduce or eliminate the daunting trek, with its menacing ornamental trees and suffocating canopy.

 

[reaperexpress]

Several intercity bus services, including Ontario Northland, serve the current station. Between the various private operators and the KLM/Air France services to YUL, there are easily 12-15 intercity buses serving the station on any given Friday. (Which, in a post-Greyhound era, is nothing to sneeze at.)

It's way more than that. I checked this Friday and there are 30 intercity bus departures from Ottawa Via Station, which is more than double the number of train departures:

15 buses per day go specifically from Ottawa Via station to Toronto Union station (in addition to all the buses from other parts of Ottawa to other parts of Toronto), which duplicates the train but with lower comfort and longer travel times. Their main advantage is price, which is a clear indication that Via is losing riders due to their high ticket prices.

 

[ShonTron]

Several intercity bus services, including Ontario Northland, serve the current station. Between the various private operators and the KLM/Air France services to YUL, there are easily 12-15 intercity buses serving the station on any given Friday. (Which, in a post-Greyhound era, is nothing to sneeze at.)

Exactly. I pointed that out in my deep dive into the Ottawa station locations. It's just too bad some people go by vibes, without reading facts.

 

[micheal_can]

That doesn't really make much sense, although it could be done. All VIA passengers are at grade level, and the fare gates are as well. They would have to go down to a seemingly non-existent basement, walk 300 feet, then go back up to the fare gates, then down again to the platform. Is it really worthwhile? Presumably they are dressed for whatever the weather is and can survive the 90-second walk between the two stations. A tunnel could reach a new entrance to the eastbound platform, but half of passengers would still need to change levels three times.

If the station is expanded, as it might need to be for ALTO and potentially something more formal for buses, it could grow towards the LRT and reduce or eliminate the daunting trek, with its menacing ornamental trees and suffocating canopy.

I am not understanding why a tunnel with fare gates could not be put in. Remember, there is a tunnel under he tracks for passengers of some of the platforms, so it is not like they don't have a tunnel in the area that passengers already use.

It's way more than that. I checked this Friday and there are 30 intercity bus departures from Ottawa Via Station:
View attachment 711263

15 buses per day go specifically from Ottawa Via station to Toronto Union station (in addition to all the buses from other parts of Ottawa to other parts of Toronto), which duplicates the train but with lower comfort and longer travel times. Their main advantage is price, which is a clear indication that Via is losing riders due to their high ticket prices.

There does not seem to be an obvious bus terminal. So, maybe the area between the LRT station, the current Via station and the future ALTO station houses an obvious bus terminal.

 

[CapitalSeven]

I am not understanding why a tunnel with fare gates could not be put in. Remember, there is a tunnel under he tracks for passengers of some of the platforms, so it is not like they don't have a tunnel in the area that passengers already use.

There does not seem to be an obvious bus terminal. So, maybe the area between the LRT station, the current Via station and the future ALTO station houses an obvious bus terminal.

Yes, the existing tunnel to the platforms could be extended, but VIA controls access to it. You could extend it to the eastbound LRT platform and put a fare gate there, but as I noted, riders arriving from the east or going downtown would still need to go up and down again somewhere or other. It is completely sensible that OC Transpo did not contemplate a tunnel when line 1 was built: too many issues.

If and when the train station is expanded and/or renovated for ALTO, it will be equally sensible to propose a more direct connection. It's not clear to me ALTO would let arriving LRT passengers directly into the tunnel that accesses the platforms. But there could be ticket and security access there, depending on what is built, without going through the main hall at ground level. Who knows?

I agree that the west side of the train station would be an obvious place to expand and possibly integrate a bus terminal. Or the space within the driveway. How about expanded rail in the red addition below, and buses in the blue? Or buses directly north of the O Train.

 

[kEiThZ]

It's way more than that. I checked this Friday and there are 30 intercity bus departures from Ottawa Via Station:
View attachment 711263

15 buses per day go specifically from Ottawa Via station to Toronto Union station (in addition to all the buses from other parts of Ottawa to other parts of Toronto), which duplicates the train but with lower comfort and longer travel times. Their main advantage is price, which is a clear indication that Via is losing riders due to their high ticket prices.

If I'm counting right, at least 9 of those buses should be redundant with the correct fares on Alto. I hope Alto plans do included a small proper bus terminal though.

 

[reaperexpress]

If I'm counting right, at least 9 of those buses should be redundant with the correct fares on Alto. I hope Alto plans do included a small proper bus terminal though.

Oh yeah easily well over 9. And that goes for the current Via service too - the only reason these buses can exist is that so many people are priced out by Via. And for every bus passenger there's probably another prospective rail passenger who decided to drive or carpool instead. I'm heading from Ottawa to Montreal for the weekend in a couple weeks and it's cheaper for me to drive alone and park literally next door to Gare Centrale for the weekend ($160 including the cost of fuel, parking, insurance, estimated depreciation and wear and tear) than it is to take Via ($170 Escape fare). Travelling with two people the per-person cost by car would be cut in half.

At the time of booking, the trains both ways were almost entirely empty according to the seat selection page.

Via's pricing is frustrating because that's something that cannot even remotely be blamed on CN. The Federal Government chooses to direct Via to minimize its subsidy rather than maximizing its public benefit per dollar. If they wanted they could have purchased more coaches to run longer trains and carry more people on the existing infrastructure at lower per-rider cost.

The big question is Montreal Trudeau Airport. Currently 7 out of 8 eastbound buses go to Trudeau airport, and if Alto goes via Laval, bypassing YUL then that bus market will remain.

 

[micheal_can]

Oh yeah easily well over 9. And that goes for the current Via service too - the only reason these buses can exist is that so many people are priced out by Via. And for every bus passenger there's probably another prospective rail passenger who decided to drive or carpool instead. I'm heading from Ottawa to Montreal for the weekend in a couple weeks and it's cheaper for me to drive alone and park literally next door to Gare Centrale for the weekend ($160 including the cost of fuel, parking, insurance, estimated depreciation and wear and tear) than it is to take Via ($170 Escape fare). Travelling with two people the per-person cost by car would be cut in half.

At the time of booking, the trains both ways were almost entirely empty according to the seat selection page.

Via's pricing is frustrating because that's something that cannot even remotely be blamed on CN. The Federal Government chooses to direct Via to minimize its subsidy rather than maximizing its public benefit per dollar. If they wanted they could have purchased more coaches to run longer trains and carry more people on the existing infrastructure at lower per-rider cost.

The big question is Montreal Trudeau Airport. Currently 7 out of 8 eastbound buses go to Trudeau airport, and if Alto goes via Laval, bypassing YUL then that bus market will remain.

Why should we expect this to be cheaper than a bus? I am expecting ALTO to be priced between the existing Economy/Escape and the Business classes for the lower priced tickets. That still leaves the spot of the lowest fare buses still in the market.

 

[ShonTron]

Oh yeah easily well over 9. And that goes for the current Via service too - the only reason these buses can exist is that so many people are priced out by Via. And for every bus passenger there's probably another prospective rail passenger who decided to drive or carpool instead. I'm heading from Ottawa to Montreal for the weekend in a couple weeks and it's cheaper for me to drive alone and park literally next door to Gare Centrale for the weekend ($160 including the cost of fuel, parking, insurance, estimated depreciation and wear and tear) than it is to take Via ($170 Escape fare). Travelling with two people the per-person cost by car would be cut in half.

At the time of booking, the trains both ways were almost entirely empty according to the seat selection page.

Via's pricing is frustrating because that's something that cannot even remotely be blamed on CN. The Federal Government chooses to direct Via to minimize its subsidy rather than maximizing its public benefit per dollar. If they wanted they could have purchased more coaches to run longer trains and carry more people on the existing infrastructure at lower per-rider cost.

The big question is Montreal Trudeau Airport. Currently 7 out of 8 eastbound buses go to Trudeau airport, and if Alto goes via Laval, bypassing YUL then that bus market will remain.

Yeah. My spouse and I are going to Montreal in April, and for the two of us, it's cheaper to drive there and park at a downtown hotel (which happens to be almost right on top of Gare Centrale). I really like train travel, even VIA's Corridor, but for the two of us, it makes sense to drive. I wish it wasn't so.

 

[crs1026]

If I were VIA (and assuming the legacy services remain, at least for the decade of construction) I can't understand why Dorval is named as such and not Trudeau Airport. I don't have any data on who gets on/off at Dorval or how many transfer to the airport, but it just seems too sensible optically to enhance the appearance (and hopefully reality) of the transfer option.
Alto may or may not choose a route close to Trudeau, if they did, I would see such a station as a complete no-brainer, notwithstanding the intent to have very few local stations en route.

- Paul

 

[zang]

If I were VIA (and assuming the legacy services remain, at least for the decade of construction) I can't understand why Dorval is named as such and not Trudeau Airport. I don't have any data on who gets on/off at Dorval or how many transfer to the airport, but it just seems too sensible optically to enhance the appearance (and hopefully reality) of the transfer option.
Alto may or may not choose a route close to Trudeau, if they did, I would see such a station as a complete no-brainer, notwithstanding the intent to have very few local stations en route.

- Paul

Makes sense to me; Dorval is the city it's in. The airport was (originally) named after the location, and to get to the airport requires a shuttle. If the trains stopped somewhere with direct access to it might make sense to rename it Trudeau.