Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[blacksquirrels]

Do you live in Scarborough?? People do have to get from Kennedy Station to STC and beyond. The SRT does have a high ridership so the infrastructure is needed. It just shouldn't be tunnelled when we have perfectly good infrastructure already in place

The city could pay for the LRT without financing from the province. If they needed to fund the project themselves they could and would be forced to find a more pragmatic approach to building transit in Scarborough, either an elevated Line 2 extension or LRT. It's easy to spend 5 billion of someone else's $, hence why we are now here with this ridiculous plan to extend Line 2 underground.

 

[OneCity]

The city could pay for the LRT without financing from the province. If they needed to fund the project themselves they could and would be forced to find a more pragmatic approach to building transit in Scarborough, either an elevated Line 2 extension or LRT. It's easy to spend 5 billion of someone else's $, hence why we are now here with this ridiculous plan to extend Line 2 underground.

Both the connected LRT and subway solutions were tabled at the City. Sadly a collectively dysfunctional City council denied both options as wither would have brought together a comparable solution. The issue is the City has shown itself far too politically and more importantly geographically polarized to determine the design and finance any major City wide infrastructure.

So the debate remained at it's lowest form of a transfer LRT vs. a one stop subway.

Given the tunnel design work completed on the one stop subway, and the RER conflicts on the old corridor the only realistic solution to build an effective line in a timely manner was to optimize the McCowan alignment.

 

[blacksquirrels]

Both the connected LRT and subway solutions were tabled at the City. Sadly a collectively dysfunctional City council denied both options as wither would have brought together a comparable solution. The issue is the City has shown itself far too politically and more importantly geographically polarized to determine the design and finance any major City wide infrastructure.

So the debate remained at it's lowest form of a transfer LRT vs. a one stop subway.

Given the tunnel design work completed on the one stop subway, and the RER conflicts on the old corridor the only realistic solution to build an effective line in a timely manner was to optimize the McCowan alignment.

Ok, but then why isn't same approach applied to the Relief Line? Why throw away all that design work? At this point, actually at every point in Toronto's history the best approach to getting transit built ASAP is to stick with what's already planned. I just don't get the double standard.

Ford had two options.

1 - Fund everything planned as is and start building ASAP.
2 - Start over from scratch, causing years of further delays.

Instead he chose option 3, a hybrid of the two, but again only hurting the core of the city. Scarborough gets an over the top infrastructure project and we get an under capacity fantasy napkin drawing. Although I have my doubt the Ontario Line moves forward to the point of actually being built. Construction won't start in the next 2 years anyways.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Ok, but then why isn't same approach applied to the Relief Line? Why throw away all that design work? At this point, actually at every point in Toronto's history the best approach to getting transit built ASAP is to stick with what's already planned. I just don't get the double standard.

Ford had two options.

1 - Fund everything planned as is and start building ASAP.
2 - Start over from scratch, causing years of further delays.

Instead he chose option 3, a hybrid of the two, but again only hurting the core of the city. Scarborough gets an over the top infrastructure project and we get an under capacity fantasy napkin drawing. Although I have my doubt the Ontario Line moves forward to the point of actually being built. Construction won't start in the next 2 years anyways.

Most of us would generally agree that throwing away the relief line design work was a huge mistake and will end up costing us politically, financially, logistically, and capacity wise in the very near future.

The next grouping of subway/RT projects (post Hurontario, Finch, TYSSE, and Crosstown) is about to start, so we really can't afford to waste time with the design work for the SSE and especially the relief line.

 

[OneCity]

Ok, but then why isn't same approach applied to the Relief Line? Why throw away all that design work? At this point, actually at every point in Toronto's history the best approach to getting transit built ASAP is to stick with what's already planned. I just don't get the double standard.

Ford had two options.

1 - Fund everything planned as is and start building ASAP.
2 - Start over from scratch, causing years of further delays.

Instead he chose option 3, a hybrid of the two, but again only hurting the core of the city. Scarborough gets an over the top infrastructure project and we get an under capacity fantasy napkin drawing. Although I have my doubt the Ontario Line moves forward to the point of actually being built. Construction won't start in the next 2 years anyways.

While there are alot of complex politics being played for the RL/OL, I would argue even then, outside of UT the OL the line will still be very well supported locally overall to move forward and the SSE is well supported across many party lines locally. Also while elevated portions were also a point of contention with Transit City as almost all line were above ground, there where other major sticking point issues that were far different then the OL with a higher magnitude of local public concern. So given there likely wont be large scale political uprising by local voters as we saw with the transfer LRT plan, I expect the lines to be built.

Also many wont like to see Ford get the credit in general, even moreso for transit going into Downtown which is not his base, but no one can stop this majority as it stands and I doubt anyone will overturn the OL next election given the urgent need, length and work that will be done.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

They are rushing ECLRT West tunnelling before the next provincial election.

AoD

Is that a change in direction? Just a couple of weeks ago, it looked like they want to expedite the OL, and postpone any real spending on the other 3 projects until after the 2022 elections.

Instead, they are pushing ahead with SSE and Eglinton West. If the SSE tunneling starts before any OL construction, then it is hard to see how SSE can finish 3 years later than OL. OL/RL in any form will include a substantial amount of tunneling in downtown, and that can't be done very quickly.

Keep in mind that QP is still awaiting over $11 Billion in federal funding. Whether or not that money materializes will impact what, if anything, actually gets built. QP has been asking for these funds for over a year though; the fact that Ford is still publicly pleading for funds is not an encouraging sign

Province to ask federal government to help fund $28.5B transit plan

The provincial government has announced that it will be asking Ottawa to help fund its ambitious $28.5-billion transit plan. At a press conference in Scarborough Tuesday morning, Premier Doug Ford said he’s asking the federal government to step up with 40 per cent of the funding. “What’s good...

toronto.citynews.ca

 

[blacksquirrels]

While there are alot of complex politics being played for the RL/OL, I would argue even then, outside of UT the OL the line will still be very well supported locally overall to move forward and the SSE is well supported across many party lines locally. Also while elevated portions were also a point of contention with Transit City as almost all line were above ground, there where other sticking point issues that were far different then the OL with a higher magnitude of local public concern. So given there likely wont be large scale political uprising by local voters as we saw with the transfer LRT plan, I expect the lines to be built.

Also many wont like to see Ford get the credit in general, even moreso for transit going into Downtown which is not his base, but no one can stop this majority as it stands and I doubt anyone will overturn the OL next election given the urgent need, length and work that will be done.

I'm quite sure the Libs will flip back to RL in 2022 if they win the next election. No way they push forward with the OL. I'd be shocked if they did.

 

[syn]

The city could pay for the LRT without financing from the province. If they needed to fund the project themselves they could and would be forced to find a more pragmatic approach to building transit in Scarborough, either an elevated Line 2 extension or LRT. It's easy to spend 5 billion of someone else's $, hence why we are now here with this ridiculous plan to extend Line 2 underground.

If Scarborough was it's own city I'm sure they'd be in love with an LRT network.

For all of Ford's talk about 'Downtown Elites', there's a strange brand of elitism that surrounds the SSE.

Ok, but then why isn't same approach applied to the Relief Line? Why throw away all that design work? At this point, actually at every point in Toronto's history the best approach to getting transit built ASAP is to stick with what's already planned. I just don't get the double standard.

Ford had two options.

1 - Fund everything planned as is and start building ASAP.
2 - Start over from scratch, causing years of further delays.

Instead he chose option 3, a hybrid of the two, but again only hurting the core of the city. Scarborough gets an over the top infrastructure project and we get an under capacity fantasy napkin drawing. Although I have my doubt the Ontario Line moves forward to the point of actually being built. Construction won't start in the next 2 years anyways.

The same reason Ford changed the province's branding and license plates.

Politics.

Doing an entirely new RL/OL gets rid of any association with the Liberals, and sticks it to the city too - something Ford hasn't been shy about.

There was a fully planned and costed solution ready for Scarborough over a decade ago. Instead it was canceled, with around $80 million in sunk costs lost. It would've been ready right now, for a multi-billion dollar extension that doesn't even address some of the biggest issues, and, according to Metrolinx, will actually result in a longer ride downtown.

In a rational world, we would've went ahead with sensible plans some time ago, and we'd be going ahead with the most sensible plan now. Ford was gifted a RL South project quickly moving ahead that he could've put his full support behind. The RL North would've been his to craft as he pleased.

Unfortunately progress isn't the goal (or at least the only goal) here.

 

[JSF-1]

Keep in mind that QP is still awaiting over $11 Billion in federal funding. Whether or not that money materializes will impact what, if anything, actually gets built. QP has been asking for these funds for over a year though; the fact that Ford is still publicly pleading for funds is not an encouraging sign

Province to ask federal government to help fund $28.5B transit plan

The provincial government has announced that it will be asking Ottawa to help fund its ambitious $28.5-billion transit plan. At a press conference in Scarborough Tuesday morning, Premier Doug Ford said he’s asking the federal government to step up with 40 per cent of the funding. “What’s good...

toronto.citynews.ca

Wasn't that due to the fact the Province didn't submit an actual plan to the feds but essentially just asked for the money without anything to show for it. I think what the feds are looking for is something tangible, not just lines on a map.

 

[OneCity]

If Scarborough was it's own city I'm sure they'd be in love with an LRT network.

For all of Ford's talk about 'Downtown Elites', there's a strange brand of elitism that surrounds the SSE.



The same reason Ford changed the province's branding and license plates.

Politics.

Doing an entirely new RL/OL gets rid of any association with the Liberals, and sticks it to the city too - something Ford hasn't been shy about.

There was a fully planned and costed solution ready for Scarborough over a decade ago. Instead it was canceled, with around $80 million in sunk costs lost. It would've been ready right now, for a multi-billion dollar extension that doesn't even address some of the biggest issues, and, according to Metrolinx, will actually result in a longer ride downtown.

In a rational world, we would've went ahead with sensible plans some time ago, and we'd be going ahead with the most sensible plan now. Ford was gifted a RL South project quickly moving ahead that he could've put his full support behind. The RL North would've been his to craft as he pleased.

Unfortunately progress isn't the goal (or at least the only goal) here.

This is such a Toronto Star narrated, untrue view.

Actually the fact is Scarborough council requested the BDL be extended at the beginning of Millers initial term, sadly the Councillors then went along with the unrepresentative leadership when it wasn't the preference as something needed to be built. The subway extension(s) were far from a new thing under Ford. Most here in Scarborough and on UT expected them as well if you read back, what in the world did you expect residents to expect when connecting to the Sheppard subway stub or upgrading the RT to the Centre. You think people here wanted more transfers or to have the Centre continue to be cut off, reduced car lanes on Eglinton and Kingston, and poorly grade separated transit on Eglinton and Sheppard? When provided these details of the plan and given a choice there was no contest and rightfully little hope for Transit City. As if the RT wasnt bad enough for residents here for decades, this was a very poorly designed plan that did little to improve on those issues and created new ones.

Also it is a fact that Ford wasn't even the only Mayoral candidate during his election running on the subway, nor has any Mayoral/Premier leader or runner-up since. Ford was just the most vocal, and apathetic voters who rallied around someone ready to fight back and be taken seriously. Based on the state the subway was left from Council and the uncompromising help to better the lines LRT or subway by many outsiders on council he wasn't wrong about the selfish geographical politics. He ended up looking justified to a very large extent.

I mean jeez, we even had Downtown Councillor coming up to Malvern from his transit rich riding to 'educate' us and carry on the charade until the Province stepped in. Dear lord your statement is so far from reality here in Scarborough, and sad it even has to be explained at this stage . But then again many here on UT believed or tried to promote that the transfer plan was coming back for the better part of the last decade so not surprising.

 

[Voltz]

This is such a Toronto Star narrated, untrue view.

Actually the fact is Scarborough council requested the BDL be extended at the beginning of Millers term, sadly the Councillors then went along with the unrepresentative leadership when it wasn't the preference as something needed to be built. The subway extension(s) were far from a new thing under Ford. Most here in Scarborough and on UT expected them as well if you read back, what in the world did you expect residents to expect when connected to the Sheppard subway stub or upgrading the RT to the Centre. You think people here wanted more transfers or to have the Centre continue to be cut off, reduced car lanes on Eglinton and Kingston, and poorly grade separated transit on Eglinton and Sheppard? When provided these details of the plan and given a choice there was not contest and rightfully little hope for Transit City. As if the RT wasnt bad enough for residents here for decades, this was a very poorly designed plan that did little to improve on those issues and created new ones.

Also it is a fact that Ford wasn't even the only Mayoral candidate during his election running on the subway, nor has any Mayoral/Premier leader or runner-up since. Ford was just the most vocal, and apathetic voters who rallied around someone ready to fight back and be taken seriously. Based on the state the subway was left from Council and the uncompromising help to better the lines LRT or subway by many outsiders on council he wasn't wrong about the selfish geographical politics. He ended up looking justified to a very large extent.

I mean jeez, we even had Downtown Councillor coming up to Malvern from his transit rich riding to 'educate' us and carry on the charade until the Province stepped in. Dear lord your statement is so far from reality here in Scarborough, and sad it even has to be explained at this stage . But then again many here on UT believed or tried to promote that the transfer plan was coming back for the better part of the last decade so not surprising.

The view is entirely true, I have lived in Scarborough for most of my life and I do want Transit City, and if I could have it switched back now I would.

You can go on these long rants as much as you want, it does not make what you keep saying true. Scarborough was lied to by the subway fanatics, and most people didn't know what LRT is. If it was built, no one would be saying we should have instead built three subway stops 15 years later.

 

[Steve X]

If Scarborough is still it's own city. They'll have their own subway vs LRT debate. They'll likely still go for the subway option that North York, Etobicoke and York all once did.

I wouldn't say they don't support LRTs but would want a subway as a backbone. Possibly a LRT network after the subway.

 

[syn]

If Scarborough is still it's own city. They'll have their own subway vs LRT debate. They'll likely still go for the subway option that North York, Etobicoke and York all once did.

I wouldn't say they don't support LRTs but would want a subway as a backbone. Possibly a LRT network after the subway.

They'd also have a debate on how to pay for it.

LRT would become a lot more attractive very quickly.

 

[sixrings]

The view is entirely true, I have lived in Scarborough for most of my life and I do want Transit City, and if I could have it switched back now I would.

You can go on these long rants as much as you want, it does not make what you keep saying true. Scarborough was lied to by the subway fanatics, and most people didn't know what LRT is. If it was built, no one would be saying we should have instead built three subway stops 15 years later.

I'm sorry I sometimes cast all Scarborough residents as OneCity supporters. Thanks for restoring faith in my once home.

 

[syn]

The view is entirely true, I have lived in Scarborough for most of my life and I do want Transit City, and if I could have it switched back now I would.

You can go on these long rants as much as you want, it does not make what you keep saying true. Scarborough was lied to by the subway fanatics, and most people didn't know what LRT is. If it was built, no one would be saying we should have instead built three subway stops 15 years later.

Thank you for sharing. I feel like there's a silent majority that really wanted the LRT network, a plan that will serve Scarborough with comprehensive service.

I'm glad the SSE is now, at the very least, not just one stop.