Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[steveintoronto]

It simplifies explaining to fare inspectors. They move on quicker in ambigious situations.

There are very few situations requiring more than 1h59min between first and last tap, so if you know you are well within that, then tapping again in farepaid areas will reduce discomfort during your next inspection in any ambigious situation.

They cam see where you last tapped, and when, the reader says that.

You *don't* have to, but it doesn't hurt.

Because 30min from a "last tap" (completed transfer tap) is better than 2.5 hours from a "first tap" (skipped transfer taps of a long bus/streetcar-subway-bus/streetcar) reduces odds of explaining to fare inspectors -- say, an inexperienced one having a bad day.

The former is nobrainer zero-coffee clearcut, and the latter is ambigious

There's a distinct risk in doing this, however, and it's my experience that if you are within your two or three hour window (TTC, GO) inspectors don't look or seem to care the route you've taken. It's only whether the window is open or closed. So if you're approaching the end of the window, tapping can only cause you grief, not relief. I've learned not to transfer when approaching the end of the open window, as if you miss your connection, you're paying again next time you tap-on, whereas if you stay on the vehicle you're on, but the window is already closed, you can ride it to the end.

This situation occurs when, for example, you're headed west on College to Roncesvalles to transfer onto the 504 to Dundas West. You're approaching the end of your time allotment, so if you transfer to a northbound route, say Spadina, Bathurst or Ossington, once on the NB vehicle, even if the window closes, you're already able to transfer to the subway while your fare is still paid. Transfer at Ronces, and you might end-up walking if you don't want to pay. (It's a short walk, so not such a great inconvenience, but it makes the point that 'renewing' your tap-ons offers no advantage. It invites disadvantage.

 

[steveintoronto]

Phoned up TTC (not Presto or Metrolinx or GO), and they are refunding $1.50 and escalating internally to sort out internally.

Update the forum on that if you could, I'd like to know how that turns out.

Neither. They were triggered by an earlier tap at Danforth GO. Return trips on GO are virtually free, if they don't pass too many zones, and start before 3 hours after the initial trip starts.

I was wondering about that yesterday. Since the in-town beaches are no-go zones right now for allowing dogs to swim, let alone people, I took Big Black Lab to Rouge Hill for a good swim there, and wondered how long the window is to return on GO from Rouge Hill Station. In the event, we did the loop along the lake, under Rouge Bridge, and along Lawrence, and a TTC bus was waiting. I thought it would be a better choice than taking GO back to downtown. Bad decision! Driver was excellent and good conversation, but bus was jammed full, very rough riding, and the floor was very hot for the dog at the back where we moved in consideration of the throngs, many with shopping buggies and prams getting on the front. Fortunately we got off at the SRT, and then took the subway which was cool for the Lab, and lots of space.

I should have taken the Really Better Way back! (GO train, it was still before peak time)

 

[ShonTron]

Ah, here's a Presto issue the 2-hour transfer won't fix.

I tapped onto a bus only 4 minutes after I tapped off at Danforth GO yesterday. But I was still charged $3. Presumably because I was at the 3 hour and 3 minute mark since my original GO tap. Presumably the system should look at the minutes since the previous tap, not the first tap - but not sure how implementable that is. Another call to TTC.

View attachment 153407

You were also undercharged for the GO Transit trip. You paid $5.93 from Danforth to Exhibition, but paid only $5.33 on the return trip.

GO Transit is not set up at all for short return trips. I went from Renforth Gateway to Hamilton once, and returned back to Toronto (plans suddenly changed), starting my trip back just within the 3 hours I first tapped. It then treated my tap off as a new trip, and screwed up my Presto charges, and I had lots of fun with GO and Presto customer service to fix that.

 

[steveintoronto]

You were also undercharged for the GO Transit trip. You paid $5.93 from Danforth to Exhibition, but paid only $5.33 on the return trip.

GO Transit is not set up at all for short return trips. I went from Renforth Gateway to Hamilton once, and returned back to Toronto (plans suddenly changed), starting my trip back just within the 3 hours I first tapped. It then treated my tap off as a new trip, and screwed up my Presto charges, and I had lots of fun with GO and Presto customer service to fix that.

Interesting. I have gotten reduced, markedly so a few times, fares on GO, more often on UPX with returns in a short time spans (within two hours), but never been able to make sense or logic from it.

It might be a glitch working in the passenger's favour at times, as I've never found explicit reference to it in ML text.

It then treated my tap off as a new trip,

Yeah...I've had that happen more than a few times when UPX first started accepting GO fare to Weston and Bloor from Union. The recommended fix from phoning GO agents? Don't tap off and then on again at Union, only tap at the beginning and end of the complete rail journey.

That's left me wondering on whether that could be done on a return within the three hour window, as long as the tap-off is within that time? And if fare is inspected on UPX, which is almost always the case, how that may/may-not complicate the fare computation.

Addendum: Just did a quick check to see what GO's policy on the time window is, and it's ambiguous:

https://www.gotransit.com/en/trip-planning/presto/three-hour-service-window

Errr....OK...lol...To condense that, 'when we screw you, give us a call and maybe we can talk about it'.

And here's another ambiguous instruction, albeit under the 'Default Trip' heading:

https://www.gotransit.com/en/trip-planning/presto/set-a-default-trip-to-save-time

Or what?

 

[Leo_Chan]

Interesting. I have gotten reduced, markedly so a few times, fares on GO, more often on UPX with returns in a short time spans (within two hours), but never been able to make sense or logic from it.

It might be a glitch working in the passenger's favour at times, as I've never found explicit reference to it in ML text.
Yeah...I've had that happen more than a few times when UPX first started accepting GO fare to Weston and Bloor from Union. The recommended fix from phoning GO agents? Don't tap off and then on again at Union, only tap at the beginning and end of the complete rail journey.

That's left me wondering on whether that could be done on a return within the three hour window, as long as the tap-off is within that time? And if fare is inspected on UPX, which is almost always the case, how that may/may-not complicate the fare computation.

Addendum: Just did a quick check to see what GO's policy on the time window is, and it's ambiguous: View attachment 153453

https://www.gotransit.com/en/trip-planning/presto/three-hour-service-window

Errr....OK...lol...To condense that, 'when we screw you, give us a call and maybe we can talk about it'.

And here's another ambiguous instruction, albeit under the 'Default Trip' heading:

View attachment 153454
https://www.gotransit.com/en/trip-planning/presto/set-a-default-trip-to-save-time

Or what?

I speculate the return trip is not intended to be an extension of the first trip, so you're suppose to pay the full fare, thus the pressing of the override button.

 

[steveintoronto]

I speculate the return trip is not intended to be an extension of the first trip, so you're suppose to pay the full fare, thus the pressing of the override button.

I surmised that too....but we're into 'what can happen' as opposed to 'what should happen' territory. And I'd still like to know how I got my return trips on UPX for free a couple of times. Maybe I didn't, it's still like learning a pig-language to decode what the charges are on the Presto website. God knows if a bank used that accounting ledger, they'd be shut-down immediately by the OFSI.

 

[nfitz]

Update the forum on that if you could, I'd like to know how that turns out.

TTC told me yesterday that they'd refund the $1.50, and it would appear on my card in a few days. I wasn't expecting them to update me about their internal stuff.

You were also undercharged for the GO Transit trip. You paid $5.93 from Danforth to Exhibition, but paid only $5.33 on the return trip.

The first column is the "discount" - how much you save from the non-Presto fare. The red number in brackets is a refund. The outbound trip was $5.02 ($5.30 - $0.28). The return trip was only $0.32 ($5.30 - $4.98), for a total of $5.34.

$5.34 is the exact amount shown on the GO Fare calculator, for a Danforth to Danforth trip, changing at Exhibition.

 

[nfitz]

GO Transit is not set up at all for short return trips. I went from Renforth Gateway to Hamilton once, and returned back to Toronto (plans suddenly changed), starting my trip back just within the 3 hours I first tapped. It then treated my tap off as a new trip, and screwed up my Presto charges, and I had lots of fun with GO and Presto customer service to fix that.

Should have treated your second tap (tap off at Hamilton) as the end of the first leg, and then your third tap (second tap at Hamilton) as the start of your new leg.

But I've seem problems where a tap off a GO Bus just magically didn't register anywhere, so the following tap onto the next vehicle, did close the leg, and the one after off the next vehicle started another leg ... and penalty fares. Stuff happens. But GO was quick to fix it. No need to call Presto (they'll only tell you to call GO). I also saw recently my wife remember after she started to walk from Danforth GO to the TTC, that she hadn't tapped off at Danforth. So she ended up walking back and tapping off - but turned out she'd tapped off all along, so the second tap 13 minutes later started a new leg. Then tapping 10 minutes after that on the TTC got the $1.50 credit, but didn't close the GO trip ... penalty fares. GO was very good to fix that quickly too (pretty obvious though with the TTC tap right outside Danforth GO that all was kocher!)

I speculate the return trip is not intended to be an extension of the first trip, so you're suppose to pay the full fare, thus the pressing of the override button.

I'd speculate that they didn't want to do it that way. But it's worked that way for years. The fare calculator (see post above) even makes calculations based on returns being very cheap (they are absolutely free in the same fare zone ... i.e. Exhibition to Union and return).

I don't even know if the override button would work like that. GO and Presto have said that the "The Override Button is only used if you have a Default Trip associated with your PRESTO card". I have no default trip on my card. Perhaps they need a fast return button instead of an override button! I'm certainly not going to start making up non-existent rules, and pressing button they say I don't need to press!

Interestingly, when I've done this fast return (which happens often enough - popping from home down to Union to pick up someone off VIA for example), and there's been a late train, the refunds are interesting. If the first leg is late, they credit $5.02. If the second leg is late they credit $0.32. I'd never bothered with a first leg credit, as I figured I wouldn't get it with the return trip on-time. But then my second-leg was late one day, and I only got the 32¢! And was surprised when my next first-leg credit got me $5.02!

This implies they are aware how the return fares work. They've worked this way for years, and we've discussed before - here's a mention I made here 5 years ago! https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/metrolinx-presto-fare-card.4286/page-147#post-775432

 

[nfitz]

Errr....OK...lol...To condense that, 'when we screw you, give us a call and maybe we can talk about it'.

Interesting to see that they say not to tap off after 3-hours. I guess they are hoping that the penalty fare matches the actual fare, because it must be a long trip. But then you don't get the Presto discount. Personally I'd rather have proof that I tapped off at 3.5 hours, for when I call them. Though I suppose you could watch that tap, see that it was a new trip, and then cancel it ... which would provide appropriate proof you were then.

And here's another ambiguous instruction, albeit under the 'Default Trip' heading:
https://www.gotransit.com/en/trip-planning/presto/set-a-default-trip-to-save-time

Or what?

Interesting. I wonder what they get charged for this.

BTW, going back in my own fare history. The "don't tap after 3 hours" presumably only applies to a >3-hour leg, not a >3-hour total trip.

I've frequently started my return trip just before the 3-hour mark, and completed it after the 3-hour mark, and still paid almost nothing. Here's an example:

(return journey started at 5:16 pm (2 hours and 52 minutes after first tap); actually the train is scheduled for 5:30 pm, but I made sure to arrive and tap before the 3-hour mark. Tapped off at 5:58 pm (3 hour and 34 minutes after first tap) and got only charged 32¢. No penalties)

 

[Leo_Chan]

Interesting to see that they say not to tap off after 3-hours. I guess they are hoping that the penalty fare matches the actual fare, because it must be a long trip. But then you don't get the Presto discount. Personally I'd rather have proof that I tapped off at 3.5 hours, for when I call them. Though I suppose you could watch that tap, see that it was a new trip, and then cancel it ... which would provide appropriate proof you were then.

Interesting. I wonder what they get charged for this.

BTW, going back in my own fare history. The "don't tap after 3 hours" presumably only applies to a >3-hour leg, not a >3-hour total trip.

I've frequently started my return trip just before the 3-hour mark, and completed it after the 3-hour mark, and still paid almost nothing. Here's an example:
View attachment 153498
(return journey started at 5:16 pm (2 hours and 52 minutes after first tap); actually the train is scheduled for 5:30 pm, but I made sure to arrive and tap before the 3-hour mark. Tapped off at 5:58 pm (3 hour and 34 minutes after first tap) and got only charged 32¢. No penalties)

Nothing major, but next time could you post the screenshot in chronological order (sort by date)?

 

[nfitz]

Nothing major, but next time could you post the screenshot in chronological order (sort by date)?

I'll try, though that's the default, so I'm very used to it.

 

[Allandale25]

Announcement tomorrow:

 

[Andy T]

Announcement tomorrow:

I'm intrigued about what it's gonna be. Presto integration? More discounts for Presto users?

 

[LNahid2000]

I'm hoping it allows paying for a Bike Share membership with a Presto Card. I'd like to get rid of the Bike Share Toronto card from my wallet.

 

[PinkLucy]

You can do that now. https://bikesharetoronto.com/presto-card-holders/