Justin10000
Banned
You do not need a transit plan to come up with something so idiotic as getting rid of streetcars.
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Rob Ford wants subways, not streetcars
- Thread starter Ansem
- Start date
You do not need a transit plan to come up with something so idiotic as getting rid of streetcars.
Mapleson
Active Member
Yes, we have more proven oil reserves today and we also use more oil today. We also have less probably and possible oil reserves, nor is unconventinal oil excluded from proven reserves anymore (like the Ascabasca Oil Sands). The oil supply however is not only constrained by raw resources (how long are we planning to use up our main source of plastic? 200-300 years, doesn't seem like the middle ages were that long ago). The biggest constrain on oil and increasing oil costs is refinery space. North America has seen a reduction in the amount of oil we can refine since Hurricane Katerina.
adma
Superstar
In a nutshell, Steve Munro's resolved that it isn't worth it. Sort of a "do not feed the trolls" logic (not that the bunch of youse *are* trolls or anything; but, still.) And, by and large, he isn't alone among "noteworthies" who could address their critics on UT but choose not to.
To some degree, it's the nature of the message-board beast, esp. in a Facebook/Twitter era, and it's been so at least ever since Usenet became a Libertrollian ghetto--though happily, UT hasn't gone as far down that path. Still, it's worth noting that when UT *does* make the news rounds, it's more often related to such stuff as the historical photo threads than to this kind of dreary, roundabout, nobody-wins transit discussion...
Hipster Duck
Senior Member
^I always wondered why messaging boards (especially for newspapers) have more than their share of angry Libertarians.
I think it might have to do with the fact being online allows shut-ins to completely divorce themselves from society and erroneously believe that you can lead a decent life without community or government.
I think it might have to do with the fact being online allows shut-ins to completely divorce themselves from society and erroneously believe that you can lead a decent life without community or government.
LAz
Active Member
I always wondered what the hell do libertarians bother doing on planning places. Libertarianism at the forefront is against planning. Hence it is a contradiction to be a libertarian and a planner. Planning requires regulation/restraint of the private sector - and libertarians advocate for the private sector to have the right to do whatever it wants, unimpeded from any regulation.
adma
Superstar
Well, maybe it's a matter of "planning for un-planning".
But otherwise, I think it goes beyond Libertrollianism, and more into how web forums and comment threads are ideal places for the hitherto losing-end of discussion to say "I'm the king of the castle and you're the dirty rascal". Which, in its way, *has* had its effect in shaking up self-satisfied complacency (whereas in the days when it was all about conventional print and broadcast media, it was easy to edit away the kooks and philistines in order to present a "united front"). But in the long run, once the high-up targets of message-board criticism decide that they can't be bothered, it can collapse into something insular and self-defeating--Usenet being the perfect case in point.
But otherwise, I think it goes beyond Libertrollianism, and more into how web forums and comment threads are ideal places for the hitherto losing-end of discussion to say "I'm the king of the castle and you're the dirty rascal". Which, in its way, *has* had its effect in shaking up self-satisfied complacency (whereas in the days when it was all about conventional print and broadcast media, it was easy to edit away the kooks and philistines in order to present a "united front"). But in the long run, once the high-up targets of message-board criticism decide that they can't be bothered, it can collapse into something insular and self-defeating--Usenet being the perfect case in point.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
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nfitz you need to chill out.
The fact Fresh Start is a conservative does not mean you can gang up on him. At least he is a conservative that cares about this city. He could have been a coward that ran to the 905 or Barrie or Peterborough, but he stayed. We need to hear all opinion to make this a better city.
The fact Fresh Start is a conservative does not mean you can gang up on him. At least he is a conservative that cares about this city. He could have been a coward that ran to the 905 or Barrie or Peterborough, but he stayed. We need to hear all opinion to make this a better city.
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nfitz
Superstar
I'm not sure I was aware that he was a Conservative ... just that he was supporting a right-wing candidate in this particular election. Many people support various parties at different times, without ever becoming members of the party.
I'm not calling out Fresh Start because he is a Conservative. I'm calling him out because he is ignorant. Fresh Start claims to be pro-transit, and yet he's supporting the most anti-transit mayoral candidate that I can recall ever leading polling in this city since World War 2. The complete lunacy of this requires one to speak out. It would be unethical for me to not call him on it.
Fresh Start
Banned
My reasons to oppose Transit City are legitimate and are not being influenced by Rob Ford nor any pro-auto neocons as Fantomex put it. Long before Rob Ford became a household name I've been saying these things. But of course Fiberals live to divide and conquer, to pit people against one another; so yes, lets label Fresh Start as right-wing/fringe/philistine/wingnut so that no one can look beyond those descriptors to find out what's at the root of my grievances with the LRT plan. Right now every city in America that has installed light-rail transit systems over the past 25 years has seen a massive depreciation in transit usage overall, leading to service cuts and the decline of downtown cores. The studies are out there to prove this, all I ask for is some civility while I try to inform you about them.
I'm not a card-carrying CPC member nor have I ever voted for them in an election. Under duress however I did vote for the LPC, and now regret my decision every day. Voters already know everything about Rob Ford that they need to know to make an informed decision at the ballot box. Rob is a no BS, stand up, say it like it is kind of politician that voters have been waiting for. Why Condemn Ford for being Human? My experience with Canadian politicians is the following: they are only friendly and accessible on election day offering a quick handshake and a phony smile by a subway station. After election day, we the people no longer matter. Once elected, our politicians distance themselves from us, they put up a wall around their office. They never help out, listen or are even interested in what we think until the next election when the pretence starts all over again. Ford is the exception. He went out of his way to help somebody and now the media is castigating him for being human and 'not careful'. I'd raher have a politician who puts the public interest ahead of the usual careful phony politics we are all sick of!
nfitz
Superstar
There is no such word as "Fiberals". That you even resort to such infantile stuff is simply proof enough that you can't debate properly.
"Right now every city in America that has installed light-rail transit systems over the past 25 years has seen a massive depreciation in transit usage overall, leading to service cuts and the decline of downtown cores."
Wow, that is so completely ignorant. I'm just shocked that you would to blatantly lie. Well, no ... that's what Rob Ford does ... and you do seem to want to emulate him.
Face it ... your a transit-hating NIMBY. You think transit should be underground or elevated, where it won't get in your way.
Fresh Start
Banned
Whatever.
I can emphasize with the plight of those who’d vote against Rob Ford based on those grounds though. For you see, Transit City likely has no chance of survival should he win. With the departure of nine City Council members thus far (20 %), and the possibility of moderate conservatives/independents like Cadigia Ali, Jane Pitfield, Mark Dewdney, Robert Walker, John Laforet, and Peter Clarke getting elected in; plus the presence of all these other incumbents: Cho, Del Grande, Di Giorgio, Grimes, Hall, Holyday, Jenkins, Lee, Lindsay Luby, McConnell, Milczyn, Minnan-Wong, Moeser, Nunziata, Palacio, Parker, Perruzza, Saundercook, Shiner, Stintz, Thompson - the agenda of the past several years can be completely undermined (and we know that the remnants of Council on the left are generally sycophants to whomever’s in charge anyway). Here’s hoping that Feldman sticks around as well.
If all these individuals were to be elected, they would make up a 28-17 majority of council members opposed or indifferent to at-grade light rail through suburbia. An anti-rail bloc could hold up light rail through permitting and litigation, or, at the very least, lobby to reopen the process. To the extent that the city council understands light rail’s negative impact, I don’t think any of them will go along with it. How could the city council go along with a project that destroys mobility and causes disruption that cuts across the main flow of traffic, not to mention would siphon commerce away from the affected corridors over the long run?
THE TORONTO TRANSIT COMMISSION IS TRYING TO RAM LIGHT RAIL DOWN OUR THROATS! We all know Light Rail is coming to suburbia, but we also know that no one on the TTC/Metrolinx board gives a d#%n about the suburbs. The only way this system works is if it is fast, efficient and effective. A tunnel that cuts under part of the major intersections or an option that stays out of the core of dense areas, but reasonably connects to mobility hubs which carries people from Finch, Sheppard or Eglinton to Downtown Toronto will be effective... but only if it is fast and unimpeded.
We need more crowdsourcing, less elitist mandates. Politicians who support cronyism should be considered fraud; these individuals don’t have the education, experience or skills. Thus they are just robbing the public of millions, if not billions. Far too many developers in this city engage in business practices that should be illegal - or get away with behaviour that actually is illegal.
The Toronto election is happening on October 25th of this year and, unless something quite unexpected happens, the majority of the current council will not be getting re-elected and the new council, in accordance with the wishes of the majority of the people of Toronto, will be cancelling this project and the associated equipment order. Equipment will not be needed; and I am sure that when the contract and all its side documents are opened up to the public, we will find that, even if we were to go ahead, Bombardier’s bid would not be the most economical. If you think that this kind of action is not possible, please contact the firms involved in building the Toronto Island Bridge in 2002 and ask them.
So don't let objective reality hit subjective ass on the way out.
Fresh Start
Banned
Like you and your cohorts are any better? Why I had to bring it to the mods attention just last night that The Mad Navigator refered to me and CC as c---suckers. When having to argue with juvenile minded individuals, it tends to affect your own brain cells as result.
Did you really think I'd come back here and make such statements if I wasn't prepared to back them up? You can see who favours light-rail construction: immediate area property owners; rail contractors like Siemens; and people who hate automobiles. If you are not in one of these groups -- if you are among the vast majority of Toronto taxpayers who use automobiles or HRT usbway transit for much of your travel -- then light rail will cost you far more than any benefits you will ever receive. Rail Disasters 2005 chronicles what has happened to every major city across America that has introduced light-rail into their transit networks, both old rail regions and new:
http://americandreamcoalition.org/RD2005.pdf - Pg. 7
Table One
Percent Growth in Driving, Transit Trips, and Transit Passenger Miles, 1983-2003
Driving Trips PM
Rail Regions
Atlanta 153.9 18.8 60.3
Baltimore 94.5 7.7 23.5
Boston 53.6 49.1 122.8
Buffalo 75.1 -50.1 -35.0
Chicago 68.2 -19.7 0.2
Cleveland 55.8 -42.5 -44.4
Dallas-Ft. Worth 93.5 92.2 92.3
Denver 75.4 61.1 48.2
Los Angeles 64.4 26.4 34.2
Miami 115.1 67.7 83.9
New Orleans 23.6 -24.3 -26.3
New York 11.2 4.0 15.1
Philadelphia 70.1 -7.9 6.2
Pittsburgh 42.2 -23.9 -31.6
Portland 129.2 112.9 108.3
Sacramento 94.5 110.3 51.6
Salt Lake City 91.2 75.9 124.3
San Diego 101.3 136.1 103.5
San Francisco 122.5 -13.8 122.1
San Jose 64.9 33.3 41.7
Seattle 81.0 59.0 -5.0
St. Louis 90.8 -16.5 29.7
Washington 104.4 53.3 117.5
Bus-Only Regions
Austin 160.1 522.4 639.9
Charlotte 181.2 115.0 239.8
Eugene 58.0 72.9 23.8
Houston 80.5 73.9 111.0
Las Vegas 354.1 1,239.0 1,161.2
Louisville 61.3 8.8 70.0
Phoenix 146.6 146.1 117.9
Raleigh-Durham 239.3 430.4 923.2
Source: Driving data from Highway Statistics, 1983 and 2003 editions, table HM-72; transit data from Federal Transit Administration National Transit Database, table 516083 for 1983; table 19 for 2003.
---
See the trends going on there? Light Rail-based networks have seen total transit usage haemorrhage meanwhile bus-based networks like Austin's has seen passenger growth at a rate 3x higher than that city's auto-driving growth.
GMAFB. I'm probably the most pro-transit oriented person here. I want better transit service everywhere, to every part of the City, not 51 kilometres of boondoogle that commuters would have to commute to to really benefit from it. You implement limited stopping BRT in a ROW along the outskirts of town feeding into an expanded subway system. It's not Rocket Science, and it's what the City would be building right now if David Miller didn't lowball and oversell the benefits of light-rail when we all have first hand experience with the failings of the existing LRV network. For Pete's sake, 77 Spadina was faster than the 510 and wouldn't already be requiring a massive renovation after only 13 years of service.
nfitz
Superstar
See the trends going on there? Light Rail-based networks have seen total transit usage haemorrhage meanwhile bus-based networks like Austin's has seen passenger growth at a rate 3x higher than that city's auto-driving growth. [/QUOTE]I'm not that familiar with Austin But your using the example where driving has increased more than any of the "LRT cities".
But also looking at your LRT cities? Many of these don't seem to be examples of recent LRT lines. Cleveland's LRT system was completed mostly before World War II, apart from a short extension a decade ago. Buffalo only has about 10 km of LRT, and that cities decline is well documented, and has nothing to do with LRT. New Orleans ... are you kidding me? Pittsburgh has also declined for economic reasons. What LRT in Chicago?
And hang-on, your quoting from The American Dream Coalition. Really? A NIMBY thinktank? One of their 3 main themes is mobility. Let me quote "Mobility—Automobiles give Americans access to better and higher paying jobs, lowercost consumer goods, rapid-response emergency services, distant friends and relatives, and all sorts of recreation opportunities."
These guys are anti-transit, pro-car, pro-urban sprawl. Yeah, i think you've just proved where you stand. Stop pretending. Buy the car, move to Whitby. We know that's what you want.
But also looking at your LRT cities? Many of these don't seem to be examples of recent LRT lines. Cleveland's LRT system was completed mostly before World War II, apart from a short extension a decade ago. Buffalo only has about 10 km of LRT, and that cities decline is well documented, and has nothing to do with LRT. New Orleans ... are you kidding me? Pittsburgh has also declined for economic reasons. What LRT in Chicago?
And hang-on, your quoting from The American Dream Coalition. Really? A NIMBY thinktank? One of their 3 main themes is mobility. Let me quote "Mobility—Automobiles give Americans access to better and higher paying jobs, lowercost consumer goods, rapid-response emergency services, distant friends and relatives, and all sorts of recreation opportunities."
These guys are anti-transit, pro-car, pro-urban sprawl. Yeah, i think you've just proved where you stand. Stop pretending. Buy the car, move to Whitby. We know that's what you want.
Fresh Start
Banned
Every organization has an agenda. What does that prove? The Public Transit Coalition here in Toronto sure do seem like they a definite anti-car, anti-BRT, anti-subway agenda going on. Maybe it is their followers who should move, to Alberta - Canada's unofficial light-rail province and be done with it.
Where I stand is with the advocates who'll promote any and all modes of transportation as a lasting solution to Toronto's congestion issues.
Justin10000
Banned
A long-winded rant, and you dxid not even answer the comment you quoted. Wow. You're so a anti-transit, it's disgusting.
You could not even write a cal