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Rob Ford wants subways, not streetcars

Justin, just because someone supports metros over trams does not make them anti-transit. It makes them more transit in my opinion. Seriously, stop trolling by calling metro supporters anti-transit. If anything the tram supports should be called anti-transit.

What bothers me is that you called him anti-transit for the sake of trolling. If you have anything in your brain you would know that fresh start does support transit. We all know that. So don't make a fool out of yourself.
 
Oh it's not about LRT vs. subway anymore. I got his number when he showed his support for the American Dream Coalition. I read O'toole's "Great Rail Disasters" report when it came out some years ago. The fact the report was thoroughly criticized by Paul Weyrich for being overly biased, and purposely presenting outdated data as current data shows how far anti-transit types such as O-Toole will go to further their pro-car agenda. If Fresh Start was so-pro transit, he would not have even tried to fool members with evidence from the American Dream Coalition.

http://www.cfte.org/critics/Free Congress Response.pdf

Rob Ford could care less about transit, unless it is out of his way(subways).

The only troll here is Fresh Start, and you're defending him. Good job.
 
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There are a ton of anti-transit types that hide within pro-subway rhetoric - "Transit is okay as long as it doesn't mess with my very important car traffic" - and so I think Fresh Start has just inadvertantly fallen in with the wrong crowd.

Very few politicians or advocacy groups will admit to being anti-transit outright. They're always just against specific projects, while always in favour of some massive hypothetical white elephant project that no one knows how to pay for.
 
They're always just against specific projects, while always in favour of some massive hypothetical white elephant project that no one knows how to pay for.

The easiest way to cancel something is to promise a much larger project, fund/begin the study, then let the next guy do the actual cancelling.
 
The car is a necessity, you guys forget that.

At any rate, all of us at SOS are pro-transit via making it pro-Subway and pro-BRT. We do however oppose expanding trams so far away from the CBD, and this is why you guys hate us. You live in a dream that miller has created. Where was the intellectual discussion here when that assshit formulated his plans? Where was the consulting of people? More importantly, why was there no citizen participation?! These are many failures of this undemocratic attempt to ram the lrt down our throats. The fucker just wants to be remembered. Thank god that funding got cut for his obscenity. And thank god that he'll be out of office by the end of the year. Nothing will please me more than seeing TC die. We need rapid transit. Trams driving with cars will not do that.


edit/add:
The easiest way to cancel something is to promise a much larger project, fund/begin the study, then let the next guy do the actual cancelling.

Tramsit city is as big as projects get. So many billions. If we are gonna bother spending so much money, a better investment is subways, aka rapid transit.
Thank god it's failing. Thank god.
 
Tramsit city is as big as projects get. So many billions. If we are gonna bother spending so much money, a better investment is subways, aka rapid transit.

I can't speak for others, but for me, a big factor is the amount of transit that is provided. Surface LRT, even in it's own ROW (albeit with at-grade cross-streets) is a fraction of the cost of subways.

People can argue ad-infinitum about projected demands and whether they are for subway capacity or LRT capacity, but if you buy in to the projections that are only to the latter, then it makes far more sense to build four (or more) times LRT kms than subway kms.

That being said, I'd give preference to the DRL before any TC lines that will be dumping more people on an already at-capacity subway line. However I don't see how a new mayor coming in and outright canceling TC will suddenly secure the necessary funding to build the DRL, especially since it isn't high on the priorities of any of the anti-TC candidates.
 
The car is a necessity, you guys forget that.

At any rate, all of us at SOS are pro-transit via making it pro-Subway and pro-BRT. We do however oppose expanding trams so far away from the CBD, and this is why you guys hate us. You live in a dream that miller has created. Where was the intellectual discussion here when that assshit formulated his plans? Where was the consulting of people? More importantly, why was there no citizen participation?! These are many failures of this undemocratic attempt to ram the lrt down our throats. The fucker just wants to be remembered. Thank god that funding got cut for his obscenity. And thank god that he'll be out of office by the end of the year. Nothing will please me more than seeing TC die. We need rapid transit. Trams driving with cars will not do that.


edit/add:


Tramsit city is as big as projects get. So many billions. If we are gonna bother spending so much money, a better investment is subways, aka rapid transit.
Thank god it's failing. Thank god.
I believe most people here don't forget cars are the dominate form of transportation in Canada, normally composing 70-90% of the mix. As Toronto is expected to grow by 100,000 per year for the next 10 years, we can't allow the car component of transportation to grow as quickly as others without a massive investment in infrastructure. We look at Transit City and think how much Highway 407 cost. Consider what road improvements would cost to handle the unrestrained growth in single-user vehicles. Look at the real costs of each option and then say which is best before ruling one technology completely out of hand.
 
A long-winded rant, and you dxid not even answer the comment you quoted. Wow. You're so a anti-transit, it's disgusting.

You could not even write a cal

What comment? You just rambled off some random points then decidedly came to the conclusion that Rob Ford must be anti-transit. The only thing that's disgusting is to insinuate that someone's anti-transit just because they are opposed to your particular boondoggle. To all those saying that I'm supporting elevated/underground ROW for the sake of auto-drivers, you're idiots. Exclusive, private, unmitigated right-of-way for buses, trams or subway cars is the surest way to guarantee rapid speeds across the city. When one calculates the distances using an at-grade, road-median ROW; you quickly come to realize that Transit City at best will match the speeds of a current express bus route which lacks a ROW. If any of your Transit City lines had an end-point destination worthy of the high-expense maybe I could excuse it on those grounds, but to Conlins Rd and Sheppard, Finch and Hwy 27, Eglinton Flats Park? Forgive me if I view this as a massive waste of time for all parties involved.

I'll reiterate what was said in the "long-winded rant" (I'd call it a dissertation), it doesn't matter how many ways you elitist lobbyists try to spin the agenda in favor of light-rail if a vast majority of Toronto citizens vote against your schemes come October 25. If held to a general referendum, you would lose, even after years of trying to convince the public that subway expansion is too cost-prohibitive to still entertain. The contracts won't hold up to the test of public scrutiny, and the people will demand better utilization of the funds. The firms involved in the Toronto Island Bridge fiasco had to find that out the hard way. Permitting, litigation and reopening the process will tie things up for years. All it takes to achieve this is political will. Like I said we need more crowdsourcing and public consultation (and no, not 3 open house session held over a 18 month period in churches or school auditoriums that most folk who don't frequent http://www.toronto.ca/ wouldn't even know about).
 
Table One
Percent Growth in Driving, Transit Trips, and Transit Passenger Miles, 1983-2003
Driving Trips PM

Rail Regions
Atlanta 153.9 18.8 60.3
Baltimore 94.5 7.7 23.5
Boston 53.6 49.1 122.8
Buffalo 75.1 -50.1 -35.0
Chicago 68.2 -19.7 0.2
Cleveland 55.8 -42.5 -44.4
Dallas-Ft. Worth 93.5 92.2 92.3
Denver 75.4 61.1 48.2
Los Angeles 64.4 26.4 34.2
Miami 115.1 67.7 83.9
New Orleans 23.6 -24.3 -26.3
New York 11.2 4.0 15.1
Philadelphia 70.1 -7.9 6.2
Pittsburgh 42.2 -23.9 -31.6
Portland 129.2 112.9 108.3
Sacramento 94.5 110.3 51.6
Salt Lake City 91.2 75.9 124.3
San Diego 101.3 136.1 103.5
San Francisco 122.5 -13.8 122.1
San Jose 64.9 33.3 41.7
Seattle 81.0 59.0 -5.0
St. Louis 90.8 -16.5 29.7
Washington 104.4 53.3 117.5

Bus-Only Regions
Austin 160.1 522.4 639.9
Charlotte 181.2 115.0 239.8
Eugene 58.0 72.9 23.8
Houston 80.5 73.9 111.0
Las Vegas 354.1 1,239.0 1,161.2
Louisville 61.3 8.8 70.0
Phoenix 146.6 146.1 117.9
Raleigh-Durham 239.3 430.4 923.2

Source: Driving data from Highway Statistics, 1983 and 2003 editions, table HM-72; transit data from Federal Transit Administration National Transit Database, table 516083 for 1983; table 19 for 2003.
---

See the trends going on there? Light Rail-based networks have seen total transit usage haemorrhage meanwhile bus-based networks like Austin's has seen passenger growth at a rate 3x higher than that city's auto-driving growth.

1983-2003 data? Really? This hardly supports the argument that recent LRT construction is killing cities. The 80's and 90's were not happy times for transit fans in the US in general. The lack of ridership growth is mainly due to the lack of growth in their systems, and continued ex-urban development. Maybe you should look at some more current data for Seattle, Minneapolis, Portland, Charlotte, Dallas, LA...etc.
 
I can't speak for others, but for me, a big factor is the amount of transit that is provided. Surface LRT, even in it's own ROW (albeit with at-grade cross-streets) is a fraction of the cost of subways. People can argue ad-infinitum about projected demands and whether they are for subway capacity or LRT capacity, but if you buy in to the projections that are only to the latter, then it makes far more sense to build four (or more) times LRT kms than subway kms.

Not neccesarily. The $4.6 billion being used now to do a mere 20 kilometres of Eglinton Crosstown LRT at roughly $230 million/km is enough to build 15 kilometres of Eglinton heavy-rail metro (@ $310 miilion/km). These costings can flactuate even lower the further west one expands that subway. So a subway stretching from Highway 27 and Dixon to Yonge and Eglinton or one from Kennedy Station to Eglinton West or one from Mount Dennis to Warden could be built for the same amount and carry tens of thousands more people during AM/PM rush than the light-rail ever will be capable of doing. Can you honestly say that LRT is the better bang for buck in this situation? Or consider FWLRT's $1.2 billion for 11 kilometres with over a billion dollars more expense if they ever extend it across to Don Mills. BRT costing as low as $15-25 million per kilometre could give us a line stretching all the way to the Zoo.

What Transit City pundits also fail to take into account is the fact that the average North American light rail line has run 35.8% over budget: Cost Overruns and Demand Shortfalls in Urban Rail and Other Infrastructure- http://www.sbs.ox.ac.uk/centres/bt/Documents/URBANRAIL6.1PRINT.pdf

The design life of a subway is +100 years. You don't build a subway for the needs of today, you build it for the needs of tomorrow. The expense to build a subway in an area that is already "at capacity" as you suggest would be vastly more than what it is now. Plus you would have the inconvenience of shutting down a LRT line that's at full capacity. Basically the Sheppard Subway won't justify it's existence for 10 or 20 years, but prove invaluable for 80-90 years after that. Cities need long term plans, not short term stop-gap measures. That is, the opportunity cost of not installing subways before the area around the Eglinton corridor intensifies is insurmountable.

That being said, I'd give preference to the DRL before any TC lines that will be dumping more people on an already at-capacity subway line. However I don't see how a new mayor coming in and outright canceling TC will suddenly secure the necessary funding to build the DRL, especially since it isn't high on the priorities of any of the anti-TC candidates.

And unfortunately it's thanks to people like Jane Jacobs who fought to keep streetcars running through the Downtown core that the construction of the DRL has been put off for over 40 years now. Without streetcars that subway would have been expedited a long time ago. No, I'm not saying that existing lines need to go before I get misquoted (again); but certainly the 501 and 504 corridors are in serious need of alleviation. To my understanding the Metrolinx board is already highly in favor of subways along Eglinton and Queen/King and have placed these lines on their earlier press releases. That's half the journey right there. They have also expressed interest in running the Eglinton Line up to Scarborough Ctr, to give it a major destination to terminate at. With the right Mayor and City Council in place backing the pro-subway agenda, I could also see Bloor-Danforth getting extended as part of an interline during the same ROW construction.

A bus-based rapid transit system for other parts of the city is also doable in a lot less time than it'll take to build TC. Busways are convertible to light-rail corridors in the future as demand grows. At 2800 PPH during peak hour by 2031, neither Finch West nor Sheppard East can quality for light-rail based on the TTC own stats regarding carrying capacity. Bus lanes can take up a maximum of 20 metres of roadway but in many cases that much width may not even be warranted (mainly just at the stations for bypassing). That it only took 18 months to complete the York U busway while the end-date of construction for the St Clair right-of-way which started over 5 years ago is yet to be determined is telling of which mode produces faster results.

So in summary, sometimes change is good - change in gov't, change in priorities. Ottawa holded off building its LRT network for a few extra years and now they're coming out with a far superior plan which involves extensive grade separation to keep pedestrians safe and warm and commute times actually fast.
 
And this, my friends, is what marginalizes web message boards to the point where the Steve Munros out there can no longer be bothered.
 
Oh, I thought you were supporting Rob "Close the TTC" Ford.

WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO DECEIVE US?!!

[video=youtube;u3rC9HxbfCE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3rC9HxbfCE[/video]

Sounds like Ford cares a lot more about the TTC (its employees and its customers) than the whole lot of Miller's minions combined. Sounds like you need to get out more and engage multiple sources of info, before arriving at these ad hoc conclusions of yours.

[video]http://videos.torontosun.com/video/featured/toronto-and-gta/5745370001/rob-ford-calls-for-subway-expansion/82129283001[/video]

Wow. What a concept. Actually asking the people that you supposedly represent what *they* would like. Can someone explain that to Miller on his way out the door? Ford can get the provincial and federal governments off their respective CULOS and make a lasting commitment to Public Transit, in supporting cities with existing public transit by allocating, a percentage of the billions of dollars collected annually through existing gasoline and diesel taxes, based on populations of each city, transit financing can be solved once and for all for Toronto and other Canadian cities.
 

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