kettal
Banned
The lrt will have less fare security than a subway, so there's a certain fear that fare evaders will get through the cracks.
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Transit City: Sheppard East Debate
- Thread starter unimaginative2
- Start date
The lrt will have less fare security than a subway, so there's a certain fear that fare evaders will get through the cracks.
prosperegal
Senior Member
They would have already paid if they're boarding from Don Mills...there's no way they'll be able to get on an LRT train at Don Mills station without paying.
golodhendil
Active Member
I think their idea is to have the LRT from the surface section run through into the existing tunnel, so people who boarded the LRT on the surface (say Warden) could have evaded the fare, and switch to the subway for free.
prosperegal
Senior Member
They already paid when they boarded at Warden. Why would they have to pay again at Don Mills? Do you have to pay when you switch from subway to SRT at Kennedy (honest question. I've never taken the SRT)?
golodhendil
Active Member
But TC LRTs (at least the surface sections) are planned to be by POP, so passengers don't have to pass through gates before boarding the trains, thus there's a higher possibility for them to evade fares.
I haven't taken the SRT in a long while, but SRT stations have gates so it wouldn't matter if transfer at Kennedy is direct.
I haven't taken the SRT in a long while, but SRT stations have gates so it wouldn't matter if transfer at Kennedy is direct.
prosperegal
Senior Member
I'm still confused. Say a passenger boards at Warden. He/she would have paid, right? He/she gets to Don Mills and transfers to the subway. There shouldn't be a need to pay, since he/she already paid at Warden. Same if it's the other way around. Person boards at Don Mills (or Bayview or Leslie, or whatever). Pays there. Gets to Don Mills and transfers to the LRT. No need, since he/she already paid. Shouldn't it be like transfering from one subway line to another?
golodhendil
Active Member
Yes, the passenger did pay (or should have paid). But their concern is that since the surface LRT is by POP, s/he could have just walked onto the LRT train and not have paid, and then in the underground section of Sheppard, if the platforms have no barrier the unpaid passenger could get into the rest of the subway system without having paid anything. (this would be like if 510 becomes POP; people boarding on the street can get into the subway for free at the underground loops at Spadina or Union) So some people above are suggesting putting fare gates on the platforms to force people to pay before getting onto the subway. In an ideal world (where TTC uses smartcards that can record previous payments), I suppose the gates would not deduct anything extra and simply act as a barrier. But of course, an argument I would make is that since none of the existing TTC stations with direct transfer have this kind of infrastructure (people can just walk in to any of the bus terminals and get into te subway for free, basically), I don't see the TTC doing this kind of precautionary measures any time soon (unless and until a more rational fare collection system is implemented in Toronto).
In another iteration of an ideal world, where TTC uses smartcards and force people to swipe out of subway stations, this would not be a problem at all because fare evaders who haven't paid when boarding a surface LRT, and transfer to the subway, would not be able to get out of the station. But of course, for Toronto this is just fantasy. (this system, however, would not be able to catch people who board at any of the surface sections, be they Sheppard, Eglinton or perhaps Spadina, then take the subway and transfer to another of these subway-surface lines and get off at the surface; these people could still have paid nothing, but of course, no fare collection system is evasion-proof)
In another iteration of an ideal world, where TTC uses smartcards and force people to swipe out of subway stations, this would not be a problem at all because fare evaders who haven't paid when boarding a surface LRT, and transfer to the subway, would not be able to get out of the station. But of course, for Toronto this is just fantasy. (this system, however, would not be able to catch people who board at any of the surface sections, be they Sheppard, Eglinton or perhaps Spadina, then take the subway and transfer to another of these subway-surface lines and get off at the surface; these people could still have paid nothing, but of course, no fare collection system is evasion-proof)
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Amphibius
Banned
I'm sorta confused by this as well. Even if someone were to illegally ride along one vehicle, wouldn't they still need a valid POP in order to transfer onto another? Kinda like the 501 or VIVA in York Region. Rarely do personnel preform random searches but riders would be unable to successfully board another bus without then paying a brand new fare. In the subway's case, transfer dispensers typically aren't even at platform level (sans Dundas/Queen) so the attractiveness of bumming a free ride is diminished somewhat by the degree of time-consumption one experiences in trying to elude detection.
I personally think that the effectiveness of a seamless cross-platform transfer at Don Mills Stn would be lost by partioning off the walkway. It's far easier to dissuade fare evasion via evoking real threat of punishment through regular spot checks and fining the delinquents a la GO Transit. Otherwise implement some form of technology at all vehicle entrances that could scan one's ticket/token/cash/metropass or validate whether a POP has the correct time, date and route info.
I personally think that the effectiveness of a seamless cross-platform transfer at Don Mills Stn would be lost by partioning off the walkway. It's far easier to dissuade fare evasion via evoking real threat of punishment through regular spot checks and fining the delinquents a la GO Transit. Otherwise implement some form of technology at all vehicle entrances that could scan one's ticket/token/cash/metropass or validate whether a POP has the correct time, date and route info.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
They could have the fare inspectors by the light rail vehicles doors and inspect every nth passengers exiting. Could do the same at every major transfer point on the line.
I still think they should make being a psychic a job requirement to be a fare inspector.
I still think they should make being a psychic a job requirement to be a fare inspector.
kettal
Banned
Or put them inside the vehicle doing their job between consumers rd & don mills.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
One light rail vehicle would be the equivalent of 2½ buses. Or 2½ bus drivers. Then when you start to have multi-unit trains (2 units = 5 bus drivers) you would still have only 1 driver. Any inspectors would be the equivalent of those spare drivers, but instead of driving they would be inspecting for proof of payment.
"No ticket!" face the consequences.
"No ticket!" face the consequences.
Amphibius
Banned
^^ LOL! 
I think many people would gladly appreciate getting kicked off the bus or train rather than incur a hefty $110 fine.
I think many people would gladly appreciate getting kicked off the bus or train rather than incur a hefty $110 fine.Eug
Senior Member
I sure hope they don't pay a ticket checker anywhere near what a driver gets paid.
Otherwise, we're gonna have an expansion of that $100000/yr club with overtime-heavy ticket checkers...
RedRocket191
Senior Member
nfitz
Superstar
Hard to argue against, when they are so short of drivers, that they've had to cut service.