kettal
Banned
LRT's can use subway tracks, they are the same gauge. The overhead wire can be installed at night, when the subway is still running. The only time the subway will have to close is during platform reconstruction.
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Transit City: Sheppard East Debate
- Thread starter unimaginative2
- Start date
LRT's can use subway tracks, they are the same gauge. The overhead wire can be installed at night, when the subway is still running. The only time the subway will have to close is during platform reconstruction.
nfitz
Superstar
We'd also have to shut it down for reconstruction into a mousetrap factory - but why are we discussing such absurdities?
What about a serious question - such as how Don Mills Station will be configured to deal with the short-term situation of both the Sheppard East and Finch LRTs, the medium-term situation of the Sheppard East and Don Mills LRT; the long-term situation of adding a Sheppard subway extension further east; and the ultimate scenario of the DRL reaching up to, and beyond Sheppard.
What about a serious question - such as how Don Mills Station will be configured to deal with the short-term situation of both the Sheppard East and Finch LRTs, the medium-term situation of the Sheppard East and Don Mills LRT; the long-term situation of adding a Sheppard subway extension further east; and the ultimate scenario of the DRL reaching up to, and beyond Sheppard.
Amphibius
Banned
^ Only Gandhi has enough patience and non-violent leanings to tackle a post like that
Oh I see, Gandhi has the rational thinking skills to realize that mixed grade separated/signal prioritized LRT is just as efficient as metro subway lines; only diff they're more affordable and wouldn't cause the complete shutting down of a corridor for years on end. Namaste.
To Cap 7:
Great post. People fail to realize the line is only a half-decade old and City Hall threatened to shut it down once already. People could get by in the one-year maximum it'd take to retrofit the subway ROW, after which no one could say that the line's merely a "white elephant" or "subway to nowhere". LRT conversion would at least be giving it a purpose.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
The stations on the Sheppard heavy rail subway line are 500' long, or 152.4 m in length, or 6 heavy rail subway cars. 4 heavy rail subway car trains are being used on the Sheppard line.
The design of the stations are such that the 4 heavy rail cars fit in with the remainder only roughed in. The roughed in portion of the stations can be lowered for low-floor light rail vehicles. Since 5 light rail vehicles could fit in a standard heavy rail transit station, one light rail vehicle could fit into the formally roughed in portion, allowing overlapping up to where the doors will be.
Additional work can then be done to lower the old heavy rail portion of the station, while the new light rail portion is used for single light rail vehicles. Expansion into the heavy rail portion can proceed until the desired multi-unit train length is accepted.
The design of the stations are such that the 4 heavy rail cars fit in with the remainder only roughed in. The roughed in portion of the stations can be lowered for low-floor light rail vehicles. Since 5 light rail vehicles could fit in a standard heavy rail transit station, one light rail vehicle could fit into the formally roughed in portion, allowing overlapping up to where the doors will be.
Additional work can then be done to lower the old heavy rail portion of the station, while the new light rail portion is used for single light rail vehicles. Expansion into the heavy rail portion can proceed until the desired multi-unit train length is accepted.
allabootmatt
Senior Member
Count me as on board for either conversion or (if track geometry permits) interlining with Yonge for the Sheppard line. A five-stop subway with forced transfers at either ends is awfully silly, especially given the volume of people who will be heading south. In a perfect world Sheppard would be extended east and west as subway and that would be that, but if we are getting LRT (and we are!) east of Don Mills, I say bite the bullet.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Oh I see, Gandhi has the rational thinking skills to realize that mixed grade separated/signal prioritized LRT is just as efficient as metro subway lines; only diff they're more affordable and wouldn't cause the complete shutting down of a corridor for years on end. Namaste.
People fail to realize the line is only a half-decade old and City Hall threatened to shut it down once already. People could get by in the one-year maximum it'd take to retrofit the subway ROW, after which no one could say that the line's merely a "white elephant" or "subway to nowhere". LRT conversion would at least be giving it a purpose.
As we're seeing with Eglinton, it's only 'more affordable' when tunnels already exist. Sheppard wasn't shut down during subway construction...ROW construction should prove to be more disruptive.
If Sheppard was closed for any length of time, surface vehicles could not handle the route, no money would be saved from the closure, and thousands of trips would switch over to cars, some permanently. Look how long it takes the TTC to do anything...one year is frighteningly optimistic. If it is a subway to nowhere, why do we desperately need to spend another billion dollars on the corridor?
Rainforest
Senior Member
Yeah. Converting Shepaprd subway to LRT is politically impossible, and even if it was possible, it is a bad way to spend the funds.
In the short term, it would be preferable to send the Finch East bypass further east, and descend to Sheppard along Vic Park or Warden, rather than Don Mills. That would provide much better LRT service to Seneca College, save money by doing less digging at Don Mills (no tunnel from Don Mills to the subway station mezzanine, just the Sheppard tunnel), and facilitate the non-revenue connection between the Finch and Sheppard lines (both would be at surface level at the meeting place).
In the longer run, if Don Mills gets LRT, it could either stay on surface or tunnel to the mezzanine level of the subway station. If Don Mills gets an extension of DRL subway instead of LRT ... well obviously it will have to cross Sheppard subway while staying underground ... but this is too far ahead to plan at present.
urbanfan89
Active Member
The Boston Blue Line switches between Third Rail and Overhead Wires, so it is perfectly possible to build special Sheppard LRT trains which do not require large installations in the tunnel.
golodhendil
Active Member
And that is regarded as one of the sorest mistakes in Boston transit history (among other almost equally sore mistakes).
While I still think the Sheppard E LRT is going to go down in history as one of the most foolish decisions in transit planning (up there with the likes of Boston Silver Line and Vienna Line U2), now that the money is starting to flow and it seems the boat has already left the dock, I think we have to make sure the Sheppard corridor doesn't degrade any further due to this pointless transfer, and if that involves converting the Sheppard tunnel "temporarily" to LRT operation, I will grudgingly accept it. However, I think we must make sure the conversion is as temporary as possible, and instead of doing anything to change the platforms (which would likely be much more expensive), I think the best way to go is to deck over the tracks with planks that bring the LRT tracks up to the level of the platforms. In this way, when sense finally comes back to the heads of Toronto transit planners to convert the line back to HRT (undoubtedly an unnecessarily expensive endeavour far off in the future), at least the conversion will be slightly easier.
CapitalSeven
Senior Member
W. K. Made a good point about the unfinished 200 feet in all of the Sheppard line stations. That idea occured to me too in the past but I'd forgotten. It might require users to walk a little further from the stairs and escalators, but saving the transfer would make up for it.
However, the overall feasability, cost, and inconvenience of the conversion would need very detailed study, and if anyone's done it, they're being careful not to release the results. Others have said the matter will have to wait until the LRT's up and running for any serious consideration to happen, and that's probably true. Going with one continuous platform will allow for the conversion to happen in the future if anyone decides it's worth while.
However, the overall feasability, cost, and inconvenience of the conversion would need very detailed study, and if anyone's done it, they're being careful not to release the results. Others have said the matter will have to wait until the LRT's up and running for any serious consideration to happen, and that's probably true. Going with one continuous platform will allow for the conversion to happen in the future if anyone decides it's worth while.
Ansem
Banned
Anyone talking about LRT conversion of the sheppard line is total NONSENSE.
I t will never happen...deal with it.
They are still considering a subway extension to Downsview because of a Yonge extension.
I bet in the future it will go to Jane and further west into etobicoke north
I t will never happen...deal with it.
They are still considering a subway extension to Downsview because of a Yonge extension.
I bet in the future it will go to Jane and further west into etobicoke north
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Even if the Sheppard HRT Subway is not converted to light rail use, part of the current Don Mills Station can be converted to light rail use. Since the current Sheppard heavy rail trains are of 4 cars in length, they do not use the entire length of the station (which is 6+ cars in length).
There are two ways to handle this. Heavy rail could be on one side of the platform, and the light rail could be on the other side. Alternatively, heavy rail could use both sides of the western portion of the platform, and the light rail could use both sides of the eastern portion of the platform.
The one side each scenario may be the cheapest, but there would be no storage of trains possible on the other side since it would be in use.
The each end scenario could mean raising the track level on each side creating a wall for the heavy rail end. In addition, while the 28 or 30 m length of a light rail vehicle would fit in the 45.574 m unused portion, there would be no room (without additional lengthening) for a double light rail vehicle train.
I think the one side for heavy rail vehicles and the other side for light rail vehicles scenario would be best, allowing for both longer light rail trains and heavy rail trains.
There are two ways to handle this. Heavy rail could be on one side of the platform, and the light rail could be on the other side. Alternatively, heavy rail could use both sides of the western portion of the platform, and the light rail could use both sides of the eastern portion of the platform.
The one side each scenario may be the cheapest, but there would be no storage of trains possible on the other side since it would be in use.
The each end scenario could mean raising the track level on each side creating a wall for the heavy rail end. In addition, while the 28 or 30 m length of a light rail vehicle would fit in the 45.574 m unused portion, there would be no room (without additional lengthening) for a double light rail vehicle train.
I think the one side for heavy rail vehicles and the other side for light rail vehicles scenario would be best, allowing for both longer light rail trains and heavy rail trains.
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Second_in_pie
Senior Member
W. K. Lis, if I understand what you're trying to say, it would take a lot of work to have 6 car trains on the Subway, which will be necessary after more development in NYCC and a Sheppard West extension. I imagine they will just add to the platform to allow a nearly seamless transfer.
wyliepoon
Senior Member
Love the cross-platform transfer idea. However, as Transit City uses a POP fare system, the platform might have to be split down the middle with fare gates and turnstiles to make sure that everybody transferring to the subway has paid.
prosperegal
Senior Member
Wouldn't they have already paid when they got on the train? I mean, I don't have to pay if I'm transferring from a Yonge train to a Bloor train.