Toronto Eglinton Line 5 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[A 6264]

Probably the most asked question on this forum (it might even come up daily) is, why was Finch called Line 6, when it functions like a streetcar, and why was it not given a 3 digit route number?
Answer: Marketing.

Most asked related question: Why do certain other streetcar lines with a right of way, such as Spadina and St. Clair, not get a single digit route number?
Answer: Those roads had streetcars going back 100 years, so if the TTC were to suddenly call them something more advanced such as LRT, people wouldn't buy it. In other words, a marketing move bound to fail.

Then you could ask, did the TTC not realize their branding for Line 6 was going to fail?
Answer: They do now.

 

[ARG1]

Most asked related question: Why do certain other streetcar lines with a right of way, such as Spadina and St. Clair, not get a single digit route number?
Answer: Those roads had streetcars going back 100 years, so if the TTC were to suddenly call them something more advanced such as LRT, people wouldn't buy it. In other words, a marketing move bound to fail.

Except that's exactly what happened to Spadina. It was only built in the 90s, it was marketed as the "Harbourfront LRT", it was listed on the subway map as a "Subway Line" with a distinct orange colour and specially demarkated stations, then after about a year of operations it was demoted to a streetcar line. This isn't the first time Toronto went through this.

 

[81-717]

There are times when the bus will be faster than a subway, too. Should we remove subways from the map as well, then? It would make it awfully empty....

Too bad that ain't so in Scarborough, which is the only line to have actually been removed.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

Still not sure who to complain about Line 5, since the TTC only drive the light rail vehicles owned by Metrolinx through stations owned by Metrolinx.

There is a survey (from TTC) about Line 5. Guess the TTC will forward the complaints to whoever.

See https://www.ttc.ca/riding-the-ttc/Line-5-Eglinton

With the phased opening of Line 5 Eglinton, we want to hear about your experience on Toronto’s new LRT line. Your feedback is essential in helping us improve service on Line 5 and across the TTC network.​

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By sharing your insights, you help us understand what’s working well and where the TTC and Metrolinx can enhance your overall experience. Whether you travelled on the LRT, transferred to or from a connecting bus route, or moved through one of the new stations, your perspective matters.​

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This short 3 to 4 minute survey will help us identify what’s going well and where improvements are needed as Line 5 continues its phased opening. We are committed to being open and transparent about what we learn and will share updates on the actions we take so you can see how your feedback contributes to a better transit experience.​

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Tell us what you think and help shape the future of Line 5.​

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COMPLETE THE SURVEY NOW​

 

[nfitz]

Now line 6 on the other hand... phew, wholeheartedly believe it should be a 500 series streetcar.

I can see an argument that Line 6 could be a 500-series (or the old 600 series they used to use for the Harbourfront/Spadina type lines).

But I can't see an argument that Line 5 should be a 500-series, given that over 80% of it will be grade separated. And I can't really see a strong argument that Line 5 would use a different numbering system than Line 6. So I don't see much alternative really. Especially as the we are likely to see more grade separation if Line 6 is extended.

604 Harbourfront LRT (601 was BD, 602 was YUS, 603 was the SRT)

 

[adma]

Except that's exactly what happened to Spadina. It was only built in the 90s, it was marketed as the "Harbourfront LRT", it was listed on the subway map as a "Subway Line" with a distinct orange colour and specially demarkated stations, then after about a year of operations it was demoted to a streetcar line. This isn't the first time Toronto went through this.

Of course, it was the "Harbourfront LRT" for a reason: when it opened in 1990, it only went as far as the Spadina/QQ loop, it didn't go up Spadina yet (that came later in the decade). However, it was the first "new" streetcar line in decades; and the first other than the Queensway stretch to have its own dedicated ROW, so it was a bit of a "novelty".

Oh, and as for the "line number" question: keep in mind that even the subways et al didn't get their line numbers until 2014. Plus, Lines 5 and 6 are self-contained entities, while the streetcar network--even newfangled separate-ROW ones like Harbourfront/Spadina and the rebuilt St Clair--is, in one way or another, interconnected and replete with intermediate loops and other adaptable configurations. (St Clair's "interconnectivity" by tenuous way of the Bathurst/Hillcrest Yard connection, of course.)

And finally, as long as it isn't the ultra-slow pain in the neck that Line 6 turned out to be, I don't think rank-and-file eastern-segment Line 5 passengers are any more worked up over the "extra" stops than St Clair passengers are. (In fact, from an urbanistic standpoint, IMO it actually makes that stretch feel oddly "humane". Much like the St Clair line is.)

 

[Sandpit]

Lines 5 and 6 could be Lines T1 and T2, and the GO lines could be R1 (for "Regional") to R6 (I'd take this as an opportunity to merge Lakeshore West and Lakeshore East since they operate as one line almost all the time anyway)

 

[ARG1]

I can see an argument that Line 6 could be a 500-series (or the old 600 series they used to use for the Harbourfront/Spadina type lines).

But I can't see an argument that Line 5 should be a 500-series, given that over 80% of it will be grade separated. And I can't really see a strong argument that Line 5 would use a different numbering system than Line 6. So I don't see much alternative really. Especially as the we are likely to see more grade separation if Line 6 is extended.

604 Harbourfront LRT (601 was BD, 602 was YUS, 603 was the SRT)
View attachment 714899

I like to fall back to the weakest link argument. To draw a comparison with highways, there's a reason why the 115 isn't called the 415 or numbered as a 400 series highway, despite most of it being built to 400 series standards. Its because that last 40% south of the Highway 35 interchange is a RIRO and isn't a proper freeway. It doesn't matter if that first 60% is a proper freeway since the last 40% holds it back. I honestly think the same applies to Line 5. It doesn't matter that most of it is grade separated and has fancy features like CBTC, the bit that's above ground and operates like a streetcar drags it down in terms of the standard its set to.

 

[nfitz]

Oh, and as for the "line number" question: keep in mind that even the subways et al didn't get their line numbers until 2014.

It was before that. Looking quickly I can see line numbers 1 to 4 at least in TTC documents as early as 2005. https://transittoronto.ca/ says November 2002 when 602 was change to Line 1, coinciding with the Line 4 opening. The old bus routes 2 and 4 were renumbered on the same day, over a quarter-century ago. (5 and 6 on the same day in 2021). I can see some Line 1 and Line 2 signage in Google Streetview from day 1 (2007).

Usage certainly has increased with time, and there weren't ubiquitous in the 2000s. At the same time, the Montreal line number usage decreased in the 1990s and 2000s - but perhaps is increasing again?

 

[CapitalSeven]

I also recall that when the Harbourfront line opened, many joked that LRT meant Loud Rattling Tram

 

[A 6264]

Except that's exactly what happened to Spadina. It was only built in the 90s, it was marketed as the "Harbourfront LRT", it was listed on the subway map as a "Subway Line" with a distinct orange colour and specially demarkated stations, then after about a year of operations it was demoted to a streetcar line. This isn't the first time Toronto went through this.

Thanks for the info, though it kind of verifies what I was saying. They implied it was part of the subway system, then decided that was a bad idea, which may be due to the explanation I gave. Also , Spadina had a streetcar from 1923 to 1948, and I'm well aware of the long gap when there was none (I do remember Spadina's notorious angle parking taking up half the width of the road, looking like an accident waiting to happen), and didn't mention it because it's not relevant to the point.

 

[ShonTron]

I like to fall back to the weakest link argument. To draw a comparison with highways, there's a reason why the 115 isn't called the 415 or numbered as a 400 series highway, despite most of it being built to 400 series standards. Its because that last 40% south of the Highway 35 interchange is a RIRO and isn't a proper freeway. It doesn't matter if that first 60% is a proper freeway since the last 40% holds it back. I honestly think the same applies to Line 5. It doesn't matter that most of it is grade separated and has fancy features like CBTC, the bit that's above ground and operates like a streetcar drags it down in terms of the standard its set to.

I think this discussion is getting towards silly territory. Does Line 2 not qualify then because the trains crawl into Kipling and Kennedy terminals?

 

[T3G]

The fact that there are times where the 34 bus will overtake the LRT really questions what did we even truly pay for here.

You people really need to travel more. This kind of rhetoric is getting incredibly tedious.

In metro and tram cities in Europe like Prague or Vienna or Budapest, for short to mid distance journeys, even in the city centre, it's usually more efficient to take the surface tram rather than to take the metro. Does that mean that they got screwed on their subway design? Or is it that different forms of transit provide different kinds of functions in different circumstances for different kinds of people that don't fit neatly into your extremely narrow parameters of what rapid transit shouldn't and shouldn't be?

It's usually faster to take the lowly, disgraced 501, 504, 505, 506, 508 across from one end of the "U" to the other, so according to the parameters of your argument, we can definitely remove line 1 from the rapid transit map.

 

[asey20]

I don't think anyone other than transit nerds care a whit about this. The average person just learns what the line is called and the average tourist reads the map and does likewise.

UP Express doesn't have a Line designation, or a TTC number, or a GO route designation. Is that confusing? Not a bit.

So far, I have heard Line 5 referred to as "the Eglinton Subway", "the Eglinton LRT", and "the Eglinton streetcar".

As a pickup line, "Actually, the Finch line is a streetcar and not an LRT" is not going to make anyone new friends.

- Paul

The average "Torontonian" may know what each line is and where they go - actually evidence this isn't true either - but the average tourist will read the map and will not know what the mode of transport is. Nothing indicates that line 6 is a LRT running at grade in traffic while line 5 is an LRT that is partially underground and partially at grade. The TTC map doesn't state that these are LRT lines. Likewise, someone visiting Toronto would see this map and have no idea about all the streetcar lines that exist unless they also see the full system map that includes streetcars. I feel like that would be something that is useful to know when riding the subway. Regardless of the streetcar map, it would be great to indicate which subway stations connect to which streetcar on the subway and LRT map. That currently does not exists either, so not sure why line 6 is special in that regards besides marketing.

UP Express doesn't have a Line designation, or a TTC number, or a GO route designation. Is that confusing? Not a bit.

Well that's because its not operated by the TTC and is technically not within the same system so why would it. It is marketed as a separate service. Although, it would be nice to have the line show up in the subway map.

On the other hand, the streetcars and LRT lines are operated by the TTC but are marketed differently, even if Line 6 is more akin to current streetcars and Line 5 is more like a subway. It doesn't make sense besides marketing.

As a pickup line, "Actually, the Finch line is a streetcar and not an LRT" is not going to make anyone new friends.

I am not sure any pickup line about transit will make anyone new friends...

 

[nfitz]

... but the average tourist will read the map and will not know what the mode of transport is.

The same as in many cities. This shouldn't be primary concern. Changing it will confuse more people that it would fix. Perhaps we should have a fantasy thread for route numbers and 400-series highway numbering.