Roads: Traffic Signals

[Dan416]

I think everyone agrees that we should just adopt the standard white transit signals, but until that is done, you gotta make do with what you have.

They should definitely remove the taxi exemption on King.

Although I do notice when walking through the King/Bay intersection that a lot of times it's TTC buses getting stuck in the intersection somehow. And when I look to see what's blocking them from clearing the intersection, it's another TTC vehicle. There are a lot of streetcars and buses on King.

I am not harping on the TTC though. I see tons of personal cars blocking intersections all along Bay Street.

 

[BrenWilson]

Examples??


The whole point of reworking the HTA rules about this stuff is that dedicated transit signals don't need to have green lights, eliminating the possibility that motorists get them confused.

How about this: you draw up some diagrams explanining what you would do instead.

I said this earlier in the thread, Hamilton uses it for straight movements from a bus queue jump lane. Main and Macnab is one I know of.

Section 144 Clause 19.1 of the HTA:

(19.1) Despite subsection (18), a driver operating a bus or street car on a scheduled transit authority route approaching a traffic control signal showing a white vertical bar indication may, with caution, proceed forward or turn right or left. 1994, c. 27, s. 138 (13).

If we're in hypothetical re-writes of the HTA and OTM guides then just allow for the full 3 light white bar signals, don't bother with some other bizzarre work around. Until then, the HTA allows for all movements of a transit vehicle through an intersection with the vertical bar. The key wording here is scheduled, meaning the movements and drivers should know what they are doing ahead of time so you can plan the movements.

 

[reaperexpress]

I said this earlier in the thread, Hamilton uses it for straight movements from a bus queue jump lane. Main and Macnab is one I know of.

Section 144 Clause 19.1 of the HTA:


If we're in hypothetical re-writes of the HTA and OTM guides then just allow for the full 3 light white bar signals, don't bother with some other bizzarre work around.

FYI Hamilton is not in Toronto.

The meaning of a vertical transit bar in Toronto is always consistent. Left and right turn with priority, and no through movement.

 

[BrenWilson]

That's entirely up to Toronto. They can choose to change that tomorrow, the HTA act allows it.

 

[trafficexplorerON]

That's entirely up to Toronto. They can choose to change that tomorrow, the HTA act allows it.

So until actual transit signals get allowed, your solution is that a white bar means thru only (no turns) at a few intersections along roads such as King Street, then turns only at practically every other intersection?
Or are you proposing that we modify most of our dedicated transit signals to add a white bar instead of the green light?
And if the latter is what you're think about, what would you do about the dedicated transit signals that can show either a green thru arrow or a vertical white bar? Such as the ones along Queens Quay at Lower Spadina. There's no way we could have two separate vertical white bars, one representing turns and one representing thru.
Until we're allowed to use diagonal bars instead of vertical bars for turns, any of that would be too arbitary to be used in Toronto.

If you insist otherwise, please draw a diagram or something so that we know what kind of signal phasing you have in mind. Your comments don't make it clear what your final solution is.

 

[reaperexpress]

That's entirely up to Toronto. They can choose to change that tomorrow, the HTA act allows it.

You are not answering what you actually want them to change it to.

It sounds like you want it to mean a different thing at every intersection in Toronto, and operators are just somehow supposed to know which direction it's referring to.

 

[BrenWilson]

You are not answering what you actually want them to change it to.

It sounds like you want it to mean a different thing at every intersection in Toronto, and operators are just somehow supposed to know which direction it's referring to.

What I want isn't relevant, that's what the HTA intends and allows for currently. It's a priority light for any movement for official transit vehicles on scheduled routes. It's not a free for all for any random bus that shows up, but a priority that the transit agency and municipality can plan to use however they need within the given restrictions. If you have a light where a street car or bus route goes straight or turns, the priority allows the operator to proceed with caution in either direction while all other conflicting traffic is stopped. Metrolinx and the TTC have obviously elected not to use this for their separated LRV routes because it's not a full traffic signal and doesn't allow for full signalling independent of the main traffic signal and they have no qualms about using our current standard for "transit signal" in place of that.

My only real speculation is that the way the HTA and OTM guide is written, there's nothing preventing two simultaneous priority signals from running provided the planned movements don't conflict. I'm not sure if they intended it that way or not.

My opinion is that there's no point in opening up the HTA for anything less than just allowing for the full 3 light white bar signal head.

And if the latter is what you're think about, what would you do about the dedicated transit signals that can show either a green thru arrow or a vertical white bar? Such as the ones along Queens Quay at Lower Spadina. There's no way we could have two separate vertical white bars, one representing turns and one representing thru.
Until we're allowed to use diagonal bars instead of vertical bars for turns, any of that would be too arbitary to be used in Toronto.

I'm unclear what your point is here. The white bar at that intersection is for the streetcar to have priority over the entire intersection, and is therefore only used here when it needs to turn left across traffic and all other traffic is stopped. The TTC could have elected to give the signal a left turn arrow instead and hold all other traffic, but the priority signal is less confusing to automobile drivers. Nothing I have said is possible here would result in two vertical bars. The HTA would however, allow for a streetcar to proceed straight on the same white bar signal used for the left turn because that is literally what is written in the HTA - if that was the intended route planned by the TTC. There wouldn't be a reason to do that here, but you could according to the HTA.

 

[trafficexplorerON]

The white bar at that intersection is for the streetcar to have priority over the entire intersection, and is therefore only used here when it needs to turn left across traffic and all other traffic is stopped.

You answered your own question. White bars are used when the streetcar that is facing it has priority over the entire intersection. Meaning that you cannot show it when there are any other concurrent movements that would conflict with any streetcar movements. And if you decide to allow it just for a few intersections like the ones along King Street, the meaning of it just becomes arbitary. Or am I misunderstanding something and you are proposing that we have a WN white bar, a EB white bar, and WB/EB peds proceed at entirely different parts of the eycle?

Once again. Please draw a diagram showing an example of what you are proposing. Preferrably, base it off an existing intersection where you think a white bar would be needed.

 

[BrenWilson]

You answered your own question. White bars are used when the streetcar that is facing it has priority over the entire intersection. Meaning that you cannot show it when there are any other concurrent movements that would conflict with any streetcar movements. And if you decide to allow it just for a few intersections like the ones along King Street, the meaning of it just becomes arbitary. Or am I misunderstanding something and you are proposing that we have a WN white bar, a EB white bar, and WB/EB peds proceed at entirely different parts of the eycle?

I addressed this in the next line. The way the HTA is written it doesn't explicity exclude you from running two non-conflicting priorities. The lastest OTM book 12 is actually more explicit:

Transit priority signals, regardless of whether being used to control dedicated corridors or lanes(i.e. BRT, LRT, streetcars) or for localized bus only lanes, may be operated exclusively during a protected transit movement or concurrently with other non-conflicting vehicular movements.

If the signal controller can detect switch positions, this would be possible in the same phase:

Spoiler: image

This would then also be possible:

Spoiler: image

Remember than in our current OTM and HTA there is only one defined white bar. There's no confusion around if it means straight or turn because it current means both, it just means priority. It is up to the designer and municipality (as the signal owner/operator) to phase everything correctly to ensure there are no conflicts during the priority. Ion's use is an exception that is not covered by the HTA or OTM. If the HTA is amended to allow expanded white transit signals, the current priority signal will likely need to change - removed, a different shape, or dedicated shapes for specific movements.

 

[reaperexpress]

I addressed this in the next line. The way the HTA is written it doesn't explicity exclude you from running two non-conflicting priorities. The lastest OTM book 12 is actually more explicit:

If the signal controller can detect switch positions, this would be possible in the same phase:

Spoiler: image

View attachment 695357

This would then also be possible:

Spoiler: image

View attachment 695358

Remember than in our current OTM and HTA there is only one defined white bar. There's no confusion around if it means straight or turn because it current means both, it just means priority. It is up to the designer and municipality (as the signal owner/operator) to phase everything correctly to ensure there are no conflicts during the priority. Ion's use is an exception that is not covered by the HTA or OTM. If the HTA is amended to allow expanded white transit signals, the current priority signal will likely need to change - removed, a different shape, or dedicated shapes for specific movements.

You can't allow eastbound streetcars and westbound streetcars to proceed at the same time if they are both shown a white bar and there is a possibility of one of them turning left (or a bus turning left). The whole point of the white bar is to give priority to the direction seeing the transit bar

Furthermore your proposal would massively increase delay for streetcars since they would need to wait for the pedestrian countdown to finish to clear all pedestrians out of the intersection before they can receive their white bar.

 

[trafficexplorerON]

You can't allow eastbound streetcars and westbound streetcars to proceed at the same time if they are both shown a white bar and there is a possibility of one of them turning left (or a bus turning left). The whole point of the white bar is to give priority to the direction seeing the transit bar

Furthermore your proposal would massively increase delay for streetcars since they would need to wait for the pedestrian countdown to finish to clear all pedestrians out of the intersection before they can receive their white bar.

I think he was suggesting that the controller would somehow be able to detect the switch position, then treat the white bar as either a thru-only signal, a left-only signal, or a right-only signal depending on the position. However, can signal controllers really do that?

If the signal controller can detect switch positions, this would be possible in the same phase:

Spoiler: image

View attachment 695357

This would then also be possible:

Spoiler: image

View attachment 695358

Here's another issue, though. Are left turns supposed to be fully protected, or are they permissive? It seems like turning streetcars are supposed to yield to oncoming traffic when the right arrow for vehicles is lit, and pedestrians when the pedestrian signal is lit. And in that case, a white bar wouldn't work.
With your proposal, I take it that the white bar would shut off when the left turning streetcar approaches?

 

[reaperexpress]

I think he was suggesting that the controller would somehow be able to detect the switch position, then treat the white bar as either a thru-only signal, a left-only signal, or a right-only signal depending on the position. However, can signal controllers really do that?

Yes the signal controllers can detect switch position if you connect them to the switch controller. For example the transit bars north-south on Spadina are called by the switch controller detecting a streetcar that wants to turn off of Spadina.

However, connecting the switch controller to the signal controller includes some fairly expensive wiring so you'd only do that where there's actually a significant benefit to transit performance.

You also can't depend on the switch controller to manage conflicts because buses exist and they don't request switch positions.