Toronto Eglinton Line 5 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[Admiral Beez]

One of the reasons why Toronto has the slowest streetcar/tram network in the world.

Well, there is Douglas, the capital city of the Isle of Man.

More seriously, Melbourne Australia has similar complaints.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

Well, there is Douglas, the capital city of the Isle of Man.

More seriously, Melbourne Australia has similar complaints.

See https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/ttc-streetcar-network.27667/post-2260454

 

[Bizari]

Well, there is Douglas, the capital city of the Isle of Man.

More seriously, Melbourne Australia has similar complaints.

Is it an exclusively Toronto thing that we don't want to solve the problems, instead we would rather deceive ourselves by saying "there are some cities that have similar problems, so it is not a big deal"?

Btw, the Melbourne tram system is still way faster and reliable than the TTC streetcar system; in fact, the TTC streetcar system is THE slowest, not one of the slowest, among almost all modern tram systems in the world.

 

[nfitz]

Btw, the Melbourne tram system is still way faster and reliable than the TTC streetcar system; in fact, the TTC streetcar system is THE slowest, not one of the slowest, among almost all modern tram systems in the world.

I'd hardly call a legacy system like Toronto's streetcars a modern tram system. I think the only comparison in North America is Philadelphia, and I don't recall that on the list that was compiled recently.

For a modern tram system, look at Finch West when that opens, and the Scarborough portion of Line 5.

 

[CityRider]

Is it an exclusively Toronto thing that we don't want to solve the problems, instead we would rather deceive ourselves by saying "there are some cities that have similar problems, so it is not a big deal"?

Btw, the Melbourne tram system is still way faster and reliable than the TTC streetcar system; in fact, the TTC streetcar system is THE slowest, not one of the slowest, among almost all modern tram systems in the world.

I realize two people have said this now, so assuming it's not hyperbole, is there an evidence-based comparison available somewhere? Just curious. I've taken the Edinburgh and Dublin trams and they both move at a snail's pace. The one I took in Alicante, Spain was decent though.

 

[allabootmatt]

The Sydney Light Rail runs at a Toronto or even sub-Toronto pace for its downtown stretch along George St, which is in theory an exclusive ROW (though thronged with pedestrians -- think Yonge and Dundas). Much faster to take a bus on one of the parallel streets. It’s better outside the CBD but still pretty slow.

None of this is to excuse the TTC situation, which is appalling. Just mean to say that these problems aren't unique.

 

[nfitz]

I realize two people have said this now, so assuming it's not hyperbole, is there an evidence-based comparison available somewhere? Just curious. I've taken the Edinburgh and Dublin trams and they both move at a snail's pace. The one I took in Alicante, Spain was decent though.

The comparison tables and references were in the last few weeks in one of the Streetcar threads. I think the source was from one of the Australian systems who were trying to evaluate if there system was particularly slow ... or not.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Is it an exclusively Toronto thing that we don't want to solve the problems, instead we would rather deceive ourselves by saying "there are some cities that have similar problems, so it is not a big deal"

I was more looking for a laugh with the horse tram. When we see the dismal performance of the TTC we can all use a chuckle.

 

[ThenWhat]

Is it an exclusively Toronto thing that we don't want to solve the problems, instead we would rather deceive ourselves by saying "there are some cities that have similar problems, so it is not a big deal"?

An interesting discussion, but a bigger question is: What case is there for building new street-level rail transit in Toronto, instead of just using buses? Is it just capacity numbers? And are those projected demand numbers real?
Bus infrastructure is easier and cheaper to set up and operate, and offers flexibility both short term (rerouting in emergencies) and long term (route changes).
Those are reasonable question, even before we consider the terrible record of building and rebuilding street car routes in this city (St Clair, Spadina, Eglinton).

 

[MisterF]

I realize two people have said this now, so assuming it's not hyperbole, is there an evidence-based comparison available somewhere? Just curious. I've taken the Edinburgh and Dublin trams and they both move at a snail's pace. The one I took in Alicante, Spain was decent though.

Study claims Toronto's TTC streetcars are the slowest in the world​

The study from urban accessibility expert Dr. Jan Scheurer set out to determine whether Melbourne, Australia's trams are the most slugging worldwide, and instead pinned that unfortunate distinction on Toronto's TTC streetcar network.

The research notes that "tram speeds in city centres are tangibly lower than on average across the network, with the exception of Toronto, where CBD-typical speeds seem to extend across the entire city."

 

[zang]

An interesting discussion, but a bigger question is: What case is there for building new street-level rail transit in Toronto, instead of just using buses? Is it just capacity numbers? And are those projected demand numbers real?

They were real enough 40 years go when the Eglinton Subway was being planned. Per usual however, priorities always give way for drivers and tax breaks.

Bus infrastructure is easier and cheaper to set up and operate, and offers flexibility both short term (rerouting in

Cheaper to set up, but definitely not cheaper to operate. More drivers are needed for the same amount of passengers and you’ve got higher regular maintenance costs and shorter vehicle life.

emergencies) and long term (route changes).
Those are reasonable question, even before we consider the terrible record of building and rebuilding street car routes in this city (St Clair, Spadina, Eglinton).

The problem with the TTC has always been the lack of enough funding to put towards maintenance. FFS, we have several subway stations that currently look downright post apocalyptic. We still use outdated switches. We make cost concessions upon the slightest pressure. We have kicked the accessibility goals down the road more times than I can count.

The TTC has long relied almost entirely on the fare box for funding, unlike transit agencies in almost all major cities, who are heavily subsidized. Here, we’ve had decades of being thrown capital bones from higher ups, with the expectation that the TTC entirely foot the cost of running it.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

They were real enough 40 years go when the Eglinton Subway was being planned. Per usual however, priorities always give way for drivers and tax breaks.




Cheaper to set up, but definitely not cheaper to operate. More drivers are needed for the same amount of passengers and you’ve got higher regular maintenance costs and shorter vehicle life.


The problem with the TTC has always been the lack of enough funding to put towards maintenance. FFS, we have several subway stations that currently look downright post apocalyptic. We still use outdated switches. We make cost concessions upon the slightest pressure. We have kicked the accessibility goals down the road more times than I can count.

The TTC has long relied almost entirely on the fare box for funding, unlike transit agencies in almost all major cities, who are heavily subsidized. Here, we’ve had decades of being thrown capital bones from higher ups, with the expectation that the TTC entirely foot the cost of running it.

The TTC was making money with the two zone fare system it had until the subway edged past the old borders of the City of Toronto into North York, Etobicoke, and Scarborough, but were kept in fare zone 1. The city had to subsidize when the old zone system of zone 1 and zone 2 were combined after lobbying by the suburban politicians. Then the province (under PC Premier Bill Davis) agreed to help with provincial funding of operations. That provincial subsidy ended with PC Premier Mike Harris.

 

[ThenWhat]

[… regarding buses …]

Cheaper to set up, but definitely not cheaper to operate. More drivers are needed for the same amount of passengers and you’ve got higher regular maintenance costs and shorter vehicle life.

Is that really true? Including the necessary maintenance and rebuilding of the rails and the overhead cables?

The problem with the TTC has always been the lack of enough funding to put towards maintenance. FFS, we have several subway stations that currently look downright post apocalyptic. We still use outdated switches. We make cost concessions upon the slightest pressure. We have kicked the accessibility goals down the road more times than I can count.

The lack of funding is real enough and has been for a long time. So is the political football around announcing new investments. So given the resources TTC has and expects to have, is there really a good case for building new street level rails, and not for example dedicated bus lanes?

 

[T3G]

Is that really true? Including the necessary maintenance and rebuilding of the rails and the overhead cables?

The TTC has currently budgeted a lifespan of 12 years for their buses (down from the historical 18), and tracks only need to be rebuilt every 20-25 years, provided that they were built correctly in the first place. Couple that with the increased personnel requirements for smaller buses, and the fact that LRVs can be coupled, creating higher capacity under the control of a single driver, and building bus lanes starts to look penny wise, pound foolish.

 

[TwoWheelPoli]

well today is the purported start of the FRD.... hopefully this is the beginning of the end of this dreaded wait...

Surprised nothing official has been announced about this full revenue demonstration. If indeed that's what's happening, Metrolinx better announce this ASAP!

The sooner this can be done - and the LRT can open - the sooner the City can start filling in those bike lane gaps from Keele to Mount Pleasant. However, the Bathurst to Allen stretch and a short stretch east of Caledonia are expected to be deferred due to traffic studies for the former and flood prevention work co-ordination for the latter.