GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)

[smallspy]

Is that why CP let GO open the Milton Line? I always heard it was the Mavis chlorine gas derailment?

A lot of railfan myths go around and around. That is one.

The initial discussions for the service date back to the launch of service to Georgetown - so around 1974 or so. That's a good 5 years before the Mississauga Derailment. What the derailment did lead to was increased political pressure to get the deal done and the line opened, however.

The GO Sub is the obvious case where GO went to the wall and built its own line. I expect 2WAD to Milton may look a lot like that. Personally I'm good with that - we build a better network by going to that distance as opposed to treating GO expansion as an exercise in detecting excess capacity on the freight side and wrangling ad nauseum to try to extricate value from an unwilling host. That's very hard on the taxpayer initially, but without legislative relief, I can't imagine that the railways will do more for what we currently pay them.

- Paul

The GO Sub only happened because the MTO gave GO the land to build a rail line that was not going to be compatible with the existing railways - remember GO ALRT? They never got around to assembling a similar plot of land to the west to recreate it through Oakville and Burlington so there couldn't be a western equivalent.

Dan

 

[Yeltsa Kcir]

Interesting read about the history of CP and CN. Didn't know that CP wanted use of GO locomotives. And I too thought Milton service was due to the Mississauga derailment.

Love seeing the contrast between the newer concrete ties and fresh ballast next to the older wooden ties and dirtier ballast.

I do too. Wonder if with the new concrete ties and all and after they complete construction if they'll increase max speeds along that stretch higher than what it was prior to the start of construction. Strange how max speeds seem lower to the east of Union compared to the west on OpenRailwayMap. But maybe not if all trains will be making stops at the future East Harbour Transit Hub.

 

[Bojaxs]

Wonder if with the new concrete ties and all and after they complete construction if they'll increase max speeds along that stretch higher than what it was prior to the start of construction.

With the existing fleet? I asked that same question awhile ago on this forum and the response I got was that it doesn't really. The switch to concrete ties is for reduced maintenance costs since they typically last longer than wooden ties.

Perhaps someone with more knowledge on this subject can give you a better response.

 

[crs1026]

A lot of railfan myths go around and around. That is one.

The initial discussions for the service date back to the launch of service to Georgetown - so around 1974 or so. That's a good 5 years before the Mississauga Derailment. What the derailment did lead to was increased political pressure to get the deal done and the line opened, however.

To support that, the announcement that the Milton line would go ahead happened within a couple weeks after the derailment but long before the Inquiry into said event even was initiated. (Check out the Toronto Star of Dec 1 1979 for details) By January 1980 - again, before the inquiry into the derailment had even taken place - CP was before the Transport Commission requesting leave to add the third track west of Royal York - their plans were clearly pretty well designed before the derailment happened.
What held up the Milton line was actually funding - as early as 1977, the Province was publicly asking Ottawa for funding and Ottawa was declining (again, check the Toronto Star - March 2 and April 16 1977).
The politics of the derailment led to the loosening of government purse strings, and not just CP's willingness to cooperate.
The dynamics of people thinking hey, there's a rail line, we must be able to drop a commuter train onto it is part of the ritual defensiveness of the railway industry towards passenger rail.

The GO Sub only happened because the MTO gave GO the land to build a rail line that was not going to be compatible with the existing railways - remember GO ALRT? They never got around to assembling a similar plot of land to the west to recreate it through Oakville and Burlington so there couldn't be a western equivalent.

Fair enough, but that design philosophy can still apply as more lines are added. Certainly, we will see a track or two added on the milton line that are run quite separately from freight. Ditto to Bolton. And Brampton-Silver. The track centers may be closer to the freight line than between the GO Sub and the Kingston Sub, but we are trending towards two different sets of infrastructure.

- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

To support that, the announcement that the Milton line would go ahead happened within a couple weeks after the derailment but long before the Inquiry into said event even was initiated. (Check out the Toronto Star of Dec 1 1979 for details) By January 1980 - again, before the inquiry into the derailment had even taken place - CP was before the Transport Commission requesting leave to add the third track west of Royal York - their plans were clearly pretty well designed before the derailment happened.
What held up the Milton line was actually funding - as early as 1977, the Province was publicly asking Ottawa for funding and Ottawa was declining (again, check the Toronto Star - March 2 and April 16 1977).
The politics of the derailment led to the loosening of government purse strings, and not just CP's willingness to cooperate.
The dynamics of people thinking hey, there's a rail line, we must be able to drop a commuter train onto it is part of the ritual defensiveness of the railway industry towards passenger rail.



Fair enough, but that design philosophy can still apply as more lines are added. Certainly, we will see a track or two added on the milton line that are run quite separately from freight. Ditto to Bolton. And Brampton-Silver. The track centers may be closer to the freight line than between the GO Sub and the Kingston Sub, but we are trending towards two different sets of infrastructure.

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- Paul

You and @smallspy should write a book with your stories and historical knowledge. I'd buy it.

 

[Yeltsa Kcir]

With the existing fleet? I asked that same question awhile ago on this forum and the response I got was that it doesn't really. The switch to concrete ties is for reduced maintenance costs since they typically last longer than wooden ties.

Perhaps someone with more knowledge on this subject can give you a better response.

Yes, with the existing fleet. I would also like to include Via trains in the scope of my initial question.

 

[smallspy]

You and @smallspy should write a book with your stories and historical knowledge. I'd buy it.

Paul could absolutely do such a book justice, as could a number of our friends. I'd happily buy anything that they would have published.

Dan

 

[crs1026]

Following the April 12-13 construction I am having a difficult time locating where the new track was installed. The three pieces of railroad equipment parked on Platform 1 at Unionville have been removed.

If I had to guess the new track was either replacing existing track for maintenance or perhaps smaller installation of new track north of Milliken station.

I was up that way today, and the only thing I could notice that has changed is the full commissioning of both platforms at Milliken, ie previously the west track was boarded over into a temporary platform. Now, passengers trains use the east platform, and reach it through the tunnels which are now open. It looked (for the first time I can recall) that the station is fully complete, but the incomplete track makes that a hollow achievement.

There was one crew of 6 or 7 people out working south of the McNicoll crossing (working being a subjective term - they had no power equipment or machinery, and were simply standing in a scrum while the train went by. Lots of radios.) but no other sign of any forward movement. The trackage sure looks like someone just cancelled the work (which is what has been informally reported, ie budget cut and work just suspended).

I don't really expect any major accomplishments until the 4 tracks - or at least three - are available west of Scarborough Jct. down to Union. But a lot of investment is certainly sitting idle. And the amount of encampment rubble around the missing bridge is sure growing.

- Paul

 

[crs1026]

I do too. Wonder if with the new concrete ties and all and after they complete construction if they'll increase max speeds along that stretch higher than what it was prior to the start of construction. Strange how max speeds seem lower to the east of Union compared to the west on OpenRailwayMap. But maybe not if all trains will be making stops at the future East Harbour Transit Hub.

Actually, zone speeds both to the west and east are similar - ie 95 mph. However there are a number of Permanent Slow Orders that are lower in some places. The physical factors that require those slow orders (curves, crossings, platforms) don't change if track changes from wood to concrete ties so a change in tie material doesn't facilitate removing these.
The current situation is less than optimal because of all the construction projects out there - and some of these will be in place for a while yet. So those zone speeds are not always relevant. Nothing we can do about that except anticipate project completion.
At the end of the day, as indicated - the switch to concrete ties is for economy and life cycle, not speed. I am not aware of any plan to boost speeds within the GO network beyond their current levels. As has recently been discussed, higher speeds add little value for the stopping GO services. Even the express trains would not really benefit that much.

- Paul

 

[Yeltsa Kcir]

Actually, zone speeds both to the west and east are similar - ie 95 mph. However there are a number of Permanent Slow Orders that are lower in some places. The physical factors that require those slow orders (curves, crossings, platforms) don't change if track changes from wood to concrete ties so a change in tie material doesn't facilitate removing these.
The current situation is less than optimal because of all the construction projects out there - and some of these will be in place for a while yet. So those zone speeds are not always relevant. Nothing we can do about that except anticipate project completion.
At the end of the day, as indicated - the switch to concrete ties is for economy and life cycle, not speed. I am not aware of any plan to boost speeds within the GO network beyond their current levels. As has recently been discussed, higher speeds add little value for the stopping GO services. Even the express trains would not really benefit that much.

- Paul

I guess more specifically was referring to the track around Union Station, but East of Exhibition GO and West of the Richmond Hill/LE junction. Idk how reliable the data is, but as per OpenRailwayMap starting from Union Max speed is 10mph -> 15 mph -> 15-60 mph going West. Whereas on the East it's 10 mph -> 15 mph -> 15-45 mph. Tops out at 60 mph going West, but only 45 going East approximately the same distance from the station on either side which is just odd to me. Specially since there aren't any level crossings or platforms there. But I'm guessing the curve is more prominent on the East side than on the West looking at the map, so perhaps that's the reasoning for the permanent slow order, together with construction.

I have the need for speed, but it makes sense that even with higher max speeds, the current GO fleet wouldn't stand to benefit much with all the stops in short order. I do wonder though if Via trains coming out of Union and going eastward could benefit from eventually increasing the max speed since I believe they only first stop at Guildwood.

 

[Bojaxs]

I have the need for speed, but it makes sense that even with higher max speeds, the current GO fleet wouldn't stand to benefit much with all the stops in short order. I do wonder though if Via trains coming out of Union and going eastward could benefit from eventually increasing the max speed since I believe they only first stop at Guildwood.

Something to consider is that VIA trains often hit a top speed of roughly 150km/h while riding on wooden ties. So what's stopping an express GO trains from doing the same? Do concrete ties really matter?

 

[smallspy]

I guess more specifically was referring to the track around Union Station, but East of Exhibition GO and West of the Richmond Hill/LE junction. Idk how reliable the data is, but as per OpenRailwayMap starting from Union Max speed is 10mph -> 15 mph -> 15-60 mph going West. Whereas on the East it's 10 mph -> 15 mph -> 15-45 mph. Tops out at 60 mph going West, but only 45 going East approximately the same distance from the station on either side which is just odd to me. Specially since there aren't any level crossings or platforms there. But I'm guessing the curve is more prominent on the East side than on the West looking at the map, so perhaps that's the reasoning for the permanent slow order, together with construction.

The data on OpenRailwayMap is a starting point, but can not be read as totally accurate in the North American context. Speed limits change pretty regularly for a variety of different reasons - there's a reason why not only is there the 500-ish page employee timetable listing all mileages and speeds, but a 25 page publication is released every morning and given to all operating crews. It covers all of the subdivisions in the region, and the crew is required to know what is coming up on the territory that they are running on.

I have the need for speed, but it makes sense that even with higher max speeds, the current GO fleet wouldn't stand to benefit much with all the stops in short order. I do wonder though if Via trains coming out of Union and going eastward could benefit from eventually increasing the max speed since I believe they only first stop at Guildwood.

There would be a minor benefit to it, sure. But keep in mind that even though the zone speed of the line east of out Toronto is 95mph, there are other reasons why trains can't operate at that speed. The track is uphill from Don to a point half-way between Scarborough and Eglinton, with the most significant stretch west of Danforth. Eastbound 12-car GO trains stopping at Danforth are simply not able to accelerate beyond about 65mph because of it.

But the biggest benefit would be separating all express from local trains by giving them their own sets of tracks. That way, VIA trains wouldn't be worried about getting caught behind the local GO trains.

Something to consider is that VIA trains often hit a top speed of roughly 150km/h while riding on wooden ties. So what's stopping an express GO trains from doing the same? Do concrete ties really matter?

The ties that the rails run on don't matter in the least.

Dan

 

[Metroscapes]

Raised tracks and a new platform: What it will take to build Waterloo region's new transit hub​

March 2026 now marked as the start date for construction of the new Kitchener Station. But they mention needing to raise the tracks between King and Weber. What's up with that?

 

[reinventingthewheel]

Raised tracks and a new platform: What it will take to build Waterloo region's new transit hub​

March 2026 now marked as the start date for construction of the new Kitchener Station. But they mention needing to raise the tracks between King and Weber. What's up with that?

I think Duke St is being grade separated and there’s insufficient distance on the NW side of the rail to send the road that deep (without severing nearby driveways.

And less of a necessity, more of a nice to have: a higher platform level will allow for one concourse level open to both sides of the rail and at the same grade as the LRT/bus loop/plaza.

 

[kotsy]

The North/West section of the Dundas East bridge is coming in 2 weeks.