GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[Bordercollie]

Crazy Niagara train ride today, as we were rounding the curve on the final approach to Niagara they had to stop as a late Amtrak Maple Leaf was still doing customs, and a 6 car Maple Leaf and 14 car GO train (locomotives included) can’t fit on the same platform.

GO had to back up a fair distance as the nearest siding that was right next to the station had a derail that nobody had the keys for, so the best available siding is what we had to go to, it was around a 40 minute process in total.

Could they not just open half the doors and let everyone off?
And why didn't the dispatcher tell them that the maple leaf was still in the station?
Going forward they should remove the detail to make the second track usable. Might need an inspection since it likely hasn't been used in two years.

 

[WB62]

Could they not just open half the doors and let everyone off?
And why didn't the dispatcher tell them that the maple leaf was still in the station?
Going forward they should remove the detail to make the second track usable. Might need an inspection since it likely hasn't been used in two years.

I moved down to the CSA area and they actually brought this up, apparently it’s just too large of a hassle to open a single door in the cab car and have everyone walk up to 12 cars, some with bikes, strollers, elderly; it’s simply unfeasible, along with the crowd of 863 waiting at the station all ready to trample each other to get on.

 

[Bordercollie]

I moved down to the CSA area and they actually brought this up, apparently it’s just too large of a hassle to open a single door in the cab car and have everyone walk up to 12 cars, some with bikes, strollers, elderly; it’s simply unfeasible, along with the crowd of 863 waiting at the station all ready to trample each other to get on.

Well the dispatcher failed, they should have informed GO of the train occupying the station.

If they had known a backup move would not have been nessisary .

 

[WB62]

What train was this (what time)?

The Union-Niagara and it’s return trip: 16:51-18:57. 19:15-whatever time it arrives at Union. I was just joyriding without getting out at Niagara.

 

[WB62]

@crs1026 @smallspy @reaperexpress

Can someone explain to me how if the primary track was occupied the GO train was allowed to proceed past a point where the other train could pass? Why was this not signal-restricted? Thanks.

(Loosely quoting from someone else) This is a spot that isn’t restricted so CN doesn’t have full knowledge on where the trains are in it.

 

[WB62]

Besides that, as I was getting off I was chatting with the CSA and he needed to contact the crew, when he used his radio every time he pressed the talk button on it the flashing light from the door activated, some sort of radio wave is interfering with the light which is pretty cool, but it brings up the question on what else it could be affecting.

This is the light in question that activated whenever the CSA spoke on the radio:

 

[crs1026]

^ Signalled territory ends at Clifton, which is the wye just west of the power canal.at Whirlpool Road. East of there, trains fall off the dispatcher’s console. (there may be a text tag on the screen reminding the RTC that the train went there, but the RTC no longer has any means of controlling or watching movements. Nor is there any mechanical means (ie signals) to control routing or keep trains separated. Nor will the RTC see a westbound train such as the Maple Leaf coming across from the east).
Trains in that zone proceed according to CROR Rule 105…which says that trains proceed prepared to stop within half the distance that they can see. In other words, watch carefully and if you have two trains on one track, sort it out for yourselves.
It would not be super expensive to signalise this short stretch, but it speaks to why ML can’t just wave a magic wand to add new services on short notice.

- Paul

 

[crs1026]

PPS - it also speaks to the priority and level of attention that the CN RTC center gives to passenger. CN‘s RTCs have lots of territory to cover and they won’t be attending to everything at once. You can be sure that if the RTC was expecting a westbound hot intermodal train, somebody would be worrying about how the two trains’ meet would be arranged. But because it’s only the Maple Leaf, whose time of arrival is uncertain and variable, and which can accept any amount of delay if its route isn’t clear, the RTC just lets whatever happens happen.
The situation is not a rule violation, and so long as everybody does their job properly and stays awake (as the GO crew clearly did) it’s not unsafe by traditional railroad standards. But it speaks to the level of attention to detail that passenger trains are given when on somebody else’s railroad. And it speaks to how the safety standards have indeed risen in recent years…. the whole idea of running heavily loaded passenger trains under Rule 105 principles, which was quite common in 1920, seems hard to accept any more.
I would also point out that thanks to the PTC push in the USA, the Maple Leaf’s locomotive would be equipped with loads of modern technology to keep its train within its route authority and separated from other trains. All that technology ceases to matter when the Maple Leaf enters the “dark” territory at the Falls.

- Paul

PPPS - removing the derail is not an option so long as the territory remains as is. It is a safety feature that has to be there by design, as under past/current operations that siding may be used to store cars or equipment. However, providing the proper keys so crews can operate it might be another possibility.

 

[Bordercollie]

PPS - it also speaks to the priority and level of attention that the CN RTC center gives to passenger. CN‘s RTCs have lots of territory to cover and they won’t be attending to everything at once. You can be sure that if the RTC was expecting a westbound hot intermodal train, somebody would be worrying about how the two trains’ meet would be arranged. But because it’s only the Maple Leaf, whose time of arrival is uncertain and variable, and which can accept any amount of delay if its route isn’t clear, the RTC just lets whatever happens happen.
The situation is not a rule violation, and so long as everybody does their job properly and stays awake (as the GO crew clearly did) it’s not unsafe by traditional railroad standards. But it speaks to the level of attention to detail that passenger trains are given when on somebody else’s railroad.
I would also point out that thanks to the PTC push in the USA, the Maple Leaf’s locomotive would be equipped with loads of modern technology to keep its train within its route authority and separated from other trains. All that technology ceases to matter when the Maple Leaf enters the “dark” territory at the Falls.

- Paul

Since the Maple Leaf is crewed by VIA could they not warn the GO train that they are occupying the station track? It would be a courtesy.

I guess part of what they need to do to bring all day service to Niagara would be to improve the signalling in this area.

 

[smallspy]

PPS - it also speaks to the priority and level of attention that the CN RTC center gives to passenger. CN‘s RTCs have lots of territory to cover and they won’t be attending to everything at once. You can be sure that if the RTC was expecting a westbound hot intermodal train, somebody would be worrying about how the two trains’ meet would be arranged. But because it’s only the Maple Leaf, whose time of arrival is uncertain and variable, and which can accept any amount of delay if its route isn’t clear, the RTC just lets whatever happens happen.
The situation is not a rule violation, and so long as everybody does their job properly and stays awake (as the GO crew clearly did) it’s not unsafe by traditional railroad standards. But it speaks to the level of attention to detail that passenger trains are given when on somebody else’s railroad. And it speaks to how the safety standards have indeed risen in recent years…. the whole idea of running heavily loaded passenger trains under Rule 105 principles, which was quite common in 1920, seems hard to accept any more.
I would also point out that thanks to the PTC push in the USA, the Maple Leaf’s locomotive would be equipped with loads of modern technology to keep its train within its route authority and separated from other trains. All that technology ceases to matter when the Maple Leaf enters the “dark” territory at the Falls.

- Paul

To be honest, I don't think that this is specifically a situation where the RTCs "ignore" passenger trains.

Many RTCs are frankly overwhelmed, as every couple of years the territories that they cover grow - and thus, along with it, a corresponding number of train movements that they have to have an eye on.

In the past year, many train crews have noted that as a general rule they don't get as much warning from the RTCs of what they consider "departures to the norm of operating the train" - things that change up the progression of operating a train on greens, like taking a siding for a meet, or sitting in the hole for 2 or 3 trains to be fleeted by them. This is likely due to the fact that RTCs just have too many trains to deal with simultaneously to be able to give them these warnings.

It doesn't help that the attitude in many RTC centres is "sink or swim" - you either do the job that is given to you, or you get out on the streets. Turnover is pretty high, and it's not unheard of to put RTCs into difficult situations right out of training to see if they can handle the stress.

Dan

 

[crs1026]

To be honest, I don't think that this is specifically a situation where the RTCs "ignore" passenger trains.


Dan

Very well put. I was not meaning to criticise the RTC’s performance, who likely had many other things on their plate. But as I say, a hot intermodal would have had people leaning into the RTC’s cubicle and ”assisting”.

Whether that’s indifference, or conscious prioritization, or just not noticing, it’s an operating glitch that could have been foreseen and forestalled. You say potato, I say poutine.

- Paul

 

[Northern Light]

I'm not obtuse about how much 'dark territory' still exists; though in my head, that belongs to remote track, spurs, and short-lines.

I'm not shocked, but am somewhat surprised to see dark territory in a location like this; I assume a push for PTC in Canada, as a requirement will be coming, and with that, I imagine a push to phase out dark territory on any tracks with higher speeds or volumes. Then again...........maybe not.

Thanks Paul and Dan for your input!

 

[Krypto98]

@crs1026 @smallspy @reaperexpress

Can someone explain to me how if the primary track was occupied the GO train was allowed to proceed past a point where the other train could pass? Why was this not signal-restricted? Thanks.

Rule 105 territory or STK territory. It's not ctc controlled.

 

[reaperexpress]

Crazy Niagara train ride today, as we were rounding the curve on the final approach to Niagara they had to stop as a late Amtrak Maple Leaf was still doing customs, and a 6 car Maple Leaf and 14 car GO train (locomotives included) can’t fit on the same platform.

The length of the trains is besides the point - you had a westbound train east of an eastbound train on a single track! Clearly nobody's going anywhere in that situation.

 

[crs1026]

Since the Maple Leaf is crewed by VIA could they not warn the GO train that they are occupying the station track? It would be a courtesy.

It's not about courtesy. It's about recognizing information that needs to be passed to others so everyone does their job effectively and safely. That's an obligation, not being polite.

I have to assume that the Maple Leaf crew was likely not aware that another train was in the area, until it arrived.

There are two schools of thought about whether RTC's should give heads-ups to crews. One is that it creates a mental conflict that tempts the crew to make assumptions or disregard other information (an example being when a signal indication or field condition changes, and differs from what the RTC told them) - plus, it may overload the crew with information they don't really need. The other is that it arms the crew with information that they might use constructively.

In this case, if someone somewhere had said, "Hey, isn't the Maple Leaf running again?" someone else might have said "Ummmm....."

But IMHO far better if the RTC had attempted to line the GO train into the platform and it was a buzzer and a panel light that said, "Ummm....."

- Paul

PS - the RTC who was controlling the GO train was likely located in Edmonton. The RTC who was controlling the approaching Maple Leaf up to the border was likely in Jacksonville Florida. What could go wrong?