VIA Rail

[reaperexpress]

Have a look at the kind of InterCity trains in the Netherlands @reaperexpress marveled about

I never marveled about anything. You said you couldn't name any intercity doubledeckers other than those in Switzerland, France and the U.S., so I helped you name some more.

If you had actually read the post, you would have seen that I agree with your position regarding doubledeckers on VIA's network. Portraying me as some kind of bilevel fanboy is doing little other than undermining your credibility.

and take the route from Amsterdam to Maastricht (which is with 218 km about the longest distance you can travel in the country)

The longest NS routes in the 2020 schedule are:
Intercity 900 Den Helder - Maastricht (301 km)
Intercity 2900 Enkhuizen - Maastricht (281 km)
Intercity 3900 Enkhuizen - Heerlen (278 km)
Intercity 700 Den Haag - Groningen (260 km)
Intercity 500 Rotterdam - Groningen (248 km)

The Amsterdam - Maastricht line is a combined segment of routes 900 and 2900, which continue north of Amsterdam to Den Helder and Enkhuizen, respectively. I don't know what the situation was in 2016, it's possible the lines didn't continue beyond Amsterdam at the time.

and you will notice that none of the 7 intermediary stops is skipped by any train

There are 36 intermediary stations between Amsterdam Centraal and Maastricht, and Intercity trains skip 29 of them:

(Amsterdam Centraal)
Amsterdam Muiderpoort
Amsterdam Amstel
Amsterdam Duivendrecht
Amsterdam Bijlmer Arena
Amsterdam Holendrecht
Abcoude
Breukelen
Maarssen
Utrecht Zuilen
Utrecht Centraal
Utrecht Vaardsche Rijn
Utrecht Lunetten
Houten
Houten Castellum
Culembourg
Geldermalsen
Zaltbommel
's Hertogenbosch
Vught
Boxtel
Best <- yes it also means the same thing in Dutch
Eindhoven Breukenlaan
Eindhoven Centraal
Geldrop
Heeze
Maarheeze
Weert
Roermond
Echt <- means "really" in Dutch
Susteren
Sittard
Geleen-Lutterade
Beek-Elsloo
Bunde
Maastricht Noord
(Maastricht)

The Intercity schedule you showed only shows Intercity stations. That particular line only has one Intercity stopping pattern, so that's why you don't see any skipped stations in the timetable.

A small number of Intercity Express services also share the line between Amsterdam Centraal and Utrecht Centraal, stopping at those two stations en route to Köln, Frankfurt and Basel. Customers with NS tickets can ride ICE services within the Netherlands by purchasing a €2.60 supplement.

and the same is true with the three stops between Amsterdam and Eindhoven (the countries' fifth-largest city).

The three stations that intercity trains serve between Amsterdam and Eindhoven are all major hubs in their own rights.

Amsterdam Amstel is a secondary hub in Amsterdam, which is the largest city in the country.

Utrecht Centraal is the busiest station in the country (busier than Toronto Union) and the central hub of the Dutch railway network. Utrecht is also the fourth-largest city in the country (larger than Eindhoven).

's Hertogenbosch is a relatively small city, but it is the capital of Noord Brabant province and is a hub for local trains in the area.

Granted, there probably aren't that many passengers commuting between Maastricht and Amsterdam, but you can bet that the number of commuters between Eindhoven and Maastricht, Utrecht or Amsterdam (and in all cases: in both directions) is considerable.

Absolutely correct. I suspect that the Amsterdam-Maastricht corridor is the busiest in the country, given the huge commuter flows between nearby cities (Amsterdam - Utrecht, Amsterdam - Den Bosch, Utrecht - Eindhoven, etc). Hence the use of 12-car bilevel trains during peak periods.

 

[robmausser]

Where would Porter base their operations?

haha thats cute.

Porter is RIP even if the Island airport doesn't get demolished. They are so far in debt before this pandemic and the government has said they aren't bailing airlines out, I expect them to post Chapter 11 sometime in the near future.

The death of Porter is the catalyst to the Island airport closing to be honest.

 

[micheal_can]

haha thats cute.

Porter is RIP even if the Island airport doesn't get demolished. They are so far in debt before this pandemic and the government has said they aren't bailing airlines out, I expect them to post Chapter 11 sometime in the near future.

The death of Porter is the catalyst to the Island airport closing to be honest.

I wouldn't be so sure. The government loves to bail out airlines. If only they took that money and invested it in Via, we would likely have HSR along the Corridor by now.

 

[robmausser]

I wouldn't be so sure. The government loves to bail out airlines. If only they took that money and invested it in Via, we would likely have HSR along the Corridor by now.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/fiscal-update-support-airline-sector-covid-19-1.5822203

 

[kEiThZ]

I really expect the Toronto Island to be torn down after the pandemic. The liberals hate it and this could be their excuse to get rid of it.

Meh. A handful of downtown Liberals and Dippers dislike the airport. There's plenty of suburban Liberals that don't care or will oppose such a closure. Especially, if say the closure accelerates other airport development, like Pickering. And let's be clear, nobody really cares what downtown Liberals think because they aren't voting conservative anytime soon.

Even with the UPX and REM, door to door VIA could easily compete with air travel, even by simply saying that its a single seat ride from downtown to downtown, without having to deal with TSA etc.

What is your math on "easily compete with air travel". I don't see it. Especially not with current travel times. Post HFR, only Toronto-Ottawa say 3:15 hrs would be somewhat competitive with air. At 4:45 hrs Toronto-Montreal wouldn't be close to competitive with air.

 

[robmausser]

Meh. A handful of downtown Liberals and Dippers dislike the airport. There's plenty of suburban Liberals that don't care or will oppose such a closure. Especially, if say the closure accelerates other airport development, like Pickering. And let's be clear, nobody really cares what downtown Liberals think because they aren't voting conservative anytime soon.



What is your math on "easily compete with air travel". I don't see it. Especially not with current travel times. Post HFR, only Toronto-Ottawa say 3:15 hrs would be somewhat competitive with air. At 4:45 hrs Toronto-Montreal wouldn't be close to competitive with air.

The last time I took the plane to Montreal from Pearson, from Union to downtown Montreal took me 4.5 hours.

30ish minutes on the UPX
2 hours in Pearson, until take off (including taxing on the runway etc)
1.3h in the air.
45 minutes Trudeau airport, taxing, deplaning etc.
45 minutes, bus from airport to downtown.

However, it was a huge headache and pain in the ass. Having to transfer 3 times, including the headache that is airport security, etc.

So even if the REM would take off 20 minutes or so to get downtown, the fact that it would take only 30 minutes more on VIA but I can plop my butt in a much nicer seat, relax, and not have to worry about anything, plus save some money over air travel? I would pick the train every time.

However the reliability of HFR would have to be proven, that I could have a 95% chance that the train would show up on time. But that is one of the promises of HFR.

Imo they don't have to beat the plane in time, they have to be "just close enough" and more comfortable, less hectic (one seat ride) economical and reliable to be a viable alternative.

 

[Bordercollie]

I think weather has a big part in flying. A small snow storm even in a different area of the country can cause serious problems with air travel.

With trains, it's not as much as an issue.

 

[micheal_can]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/fiscal-update-support-airline-sector-covid-19-1.5822203

$1.2 billion in fiscal update for airports, airport infrastructure & regional airlines

I wonder what via could do with $1.2 billion.

Air Canada bailout buys time - but Canada Inc sells out to forces of protectionism

centreforaviation.com

Last week, the formerly government-owned Air Canada announced it had managed to pull back from the brink, securing just over CAD1 billion in loans, probably enough to secure its future for the next few months.

(This was in 2009)

So, what could Via have done with $1 billion in 2009?

I think weather has a big part in flying. A small snow storm even in a different area of the country can cause serious problems with air travel.

With trains, it's not as much as an issue.

So many people see their ticket times and don't take into account anything. Whether it be passing security, or getting to/from the airport, and then all the challenges with weather all add to the total travel time. TV show Top Gear, and later The Grand Tour have done races using flying, train and driving. In Europe, Driving never wins.

 

[Bordercollie]

Mind you that is a loan. They have to pay it back.

 

[lenaitch]

haha thats cute.

Porter is RIP even if the Island airport doesn't get demolished. They are so far in debt before this pandemic and the government has said they aren't bailing airlines out, I expect them to post Chapter 11 sometime in the near future.

The death of Porter is the catalyst to the Island airport closing to be honest.

Ahhh, the influence of the US. Porter could only "post Chapter 11" if they were a US corporation. Nit pik over.

 

[kEiThZ]

The last time I took the plane to Montreal from Pearson, from Union to downtown Montreal took me 4.5 hours.

30ish minutes on the UPX
2 hours in Pearson, until take off (including taxing on the runway etc)
1.3h in the air.
45 minutes Trudeau airport, taxing, deplaning etc.
45 minutes, bus from airport to downtown.

Now do the math with the Island.

1) 1.3 hrs air time for a flight from Pearson to Dorval is a bit irregular. Not close to the norm at all.

2) 2 hrs at Pearson pre-takeoff is also unnecessary.

3) None of the Pearson timings apply to the relevant discussion: Billy Bishop. If you're flying from YTZ, you can get from the front door of Union Station to the front door of Gare Centrale in under 4 hrs with generous allowances for pre-boarding and post-arrival in Montreal.

4) The regular travelers going by air usually don't even bother checking in 1.5 hrs before departure. They have a boarding pass on their phone and they are pulling into the airport 30-45 mins before their flight and heading straight to security with their boarding pass on their phone.

 

[Urban Sky]

I never marveled about anything. You said you couldn't name any intercity doubledeckers other than those in Switzerland, France and the U.S., so I helped you name some more.

If you had actually read the post, you would have seen that I agree with your position regarding doubledeckers on VIA's network. Portraying me as some kind of bilevel fanboy is doing little other than undermining your credibility.

You are right, I should really have written "mentioned" instead of "marveled about", but I actually do think that the Intercity trains of the Netherlands have many things we could marvel about together, such as their high frequency and strict adherence to a single "Taktfahrplan" (clock-face scheduling) and stopping pattern which make their use almost as simple as taking a subway (and much easier than taking a city bus here in Montreal!), and (believe it or not!) I even think that their rolling stock is highly appropriate for the kind of service they provide, as they maximize the number of seats they provide for passengers who might travel up to 3.5 hours on them or for their daily commutes.

I took these trains myself between Maastricht and Utrecht, but I just didn't recall them when I asked for help with naming bilevel intercity trains because for a German train nerd like myself, they rather resemble "Regional Express" trains (limited-stop regional trains) than actual "InterCity" trains due to their low revenue speed of only 140 km/h and high frequency of stops (in the case of Amsterdam-Maastricht: 7 intermediary stops over a distance of 218 km, thus one stop every 27 km) than actual "InterCity" trains of the sort which reaches up to 200 km/h and is more likely to stop every 50-100 km...

Absolutely correct. I suspect that the Amsterdam-Maastricht corridor is the busiest in the country, given the huge commuter flows between nearby cities (Amsterdam - Utrecht, Amsterdam - Den Bosch, Utrecht - Eindhoven, etc). Hence the use of 12-car bilevel trains during peak periods.

Thank you for proving me wrong on my suspicion that GO Transit is the only rail company (at least in the western world) to operate 12-car bilevel trains!

Is there any math or analysis on service cars like the snack car? I'd love to know why some operators can operate one and some can't. Why the difference between Amtrak and VIA on this?

I unfortunately can only answer this very briefly (and very generally), as I really need to go to bed, but the main problems with any kind of snack/bar car are:

• Labour costs: by requiring at the very least one employee (whereas normally two cars can have the same employee assigned)
• Maintenance and capital costs: by incurring (at the very least) the same maintenance and capital costs as a regular revenue car
• Opportunity costs: by taking up expensive "real estate" in the train, which could otherwise be used for additional seats (which may be occupied with additional passengers)

Don't get me wrong: I love restaurant/bar/lounge cars for the same reasons @crs1026 does, but you just can't sell enough sandwiches or hot dogs to break-even compared to converting the service car to a regular revenue seating car - especially today where customers demand higher frequencies, which has significantly reduced train lengths in many intercity networks...

 

[kEiThZ]

Don't get me wrong: I love restaurant/bar/lounge cars for the same reasons @crs1026 does, but you just can't sell enough sandwiches or hot dogs to break-even compared to converting the service car to a regular revenue seating car - especially today where customers demand higher frequencies, which has significantly reduced train lengths in many intercity networks...

I get the idea. But I wonder if the promotional and aspirational value is lost in the analysis. I mean Amtrak manages a cafe car on a 304 seat/5 pax coach Acela. And they must see value in it, if they included it in the Avelia Liberty refresh.

 

[jamincan]

Thank you for proving me wrong on my suspicion that GO Transit is the only rail company (at least in the western world) to operate 12-car bilevel trains!

Never mind a 12-car bilevel train, I was once on a 24-car bilevel train into Barrie!

(from Aurora, when we needed a push from the following train due to some tech issues)

 

[crs1026]

Don't get me wrong: I love restaurant/bar/lounge cars for the same reasons @crs1026 does, but you just can't sell enough sandwiches or hot dogs to break-even compared to converting the service car to a regular revenue seating car - especially today where customers demand higher frequencies, which has significantly reduced train lengths in many intercity networks...

This is interesting insight, thank you. For North America, anyways, the cafe car dates from an era where trains didn’t sell out all the time, and maximising seats per car operated really wasn’t an issue. The cafe car was just a sunk cost towards running the train. I suppose that’s an outdated paradigm - the more things that are scalable, and the more consistent the fleet can be, the better the economics will be. One certainly can’t advocate for DMU and snack bar car in the same breath!

Still, having a kitchen in every car must have its costs. There will be a more distributed handling and accounting for cash (although touchless is likely here to stay), liquor must be inventoried in every car, there must be more food wastage (as every coach must be stocked, and one would expect more unsold items returned), handling costs and logistics would be more complex. Many more refrigerators and microwaves and coffee makers to maintain.

Still, given the choice between a made-to-order Norwegian Rail panini-style toasted cheese sandwich, and the traditional stone cold cellophane wrapped Canadian equivalent, I know which I’d pick.

- Paul