TheKingEast
Senior Member
Yea I fall within the transfer window. Also it would be great if it was possible to pay for a fare with your debit card. That would be awesome and much more convenient. I guess that will come in the future.
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TransitBart
Senior Member
As you should. Enough mollycoddling.
steveintoronto
Superstar
A small but crucial piece of info you didn't state!
Excellent heads up, That's a long read, will do so shortly.
The card features, system parameters, zones, etc, etc, are radically different. It's not a linear comparison.
steveintoronto
Superstar
^ Just read the TTC audit review. Someone should audit the reviews! A couple of words come to mind, the most prominent: Presumption! Historically, these assumed results have proven highly inaccurate. That was ostensibly why the 'two hour transfer' was resisted for so long by the TTC in the face of many studies in North Am cities where they been used for over a generation, and Cdn ones!
There's a certain paranoia that pervades the suspicious cheat catchers. The "two-hour transfer" is only alluded to twice in the same paragraph with a "2 hour transfer" mentioned once in the adjacent margin, and one reference to a bar graph number adjustment. That's it! I sense they don't want to discuss it, it might shake their little world loose.
But I did notice a few anomalies, this being one:
Whatever, they were checking fares getting on. And they check at the Bathurst Station quite often for fares getting off.
There's a certain paranoia that pervades the suspicious cheat catchers. The "two-hour transfer" is only alluded to twice in the same paragraph with a "2 hour transfer" mentioned once in the adjacent margin, and one reference to a bar graph number adjustment. That's it! I sense they don't want to discuss it, it might shake their little world loose.
But I did notice a few anomalies, this being one:
I've seen them at work on buses! Bathurst South just last week. Two of them fare checkers standing in the back door, blocking it. I get just a little tired of anyone blocking doors, and let them know it. An argument ensued, and "Bylaw One" was mentioned, By me! They moved. Ignorant fffing cop wannabes. I immediately thought of the black kid they roughed up on St Clair. Seems they haven't learned their lesson.
Whatever, they were checking fares getting on. And they check at the Bathurst Station quite often for fares getting off.
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WillTo
Senior Member
TTC has not been consistent on policy regarding POP and buses.
"Your POP proves you have paid your fare and may be requested at any time by a Fare Inspector or an Operator when you transfer between a bus, streetcar or the subway. Proof-of-Payment is required on all streetcar routes and streetcars are marked with a special POP decal. " From ttc.ca
But also
"Bus
PRESTO
I take this that POP is not required on buses. Therefore, if I am in the subway system when my 2hr period elapses, I will board a bus (that goes into the fare paid area) without tapping to not be dinged a second time.
"Your POP proves you have paid your fare and may be requested at any time by a Fare Inspector or an Operator when you transfer between a bus, streetcar or the subway. Proof-of-Payment is required on all streetcar routes and streetcars are marked with a special POP decal. " From ttc.ca
But also
"Bus
PRESTO
- Tap your PRESTO card on a reader at the start of your journey. Your fare will be deducted and a transfer will be applied to your card. Your transfer is valid for two-hours of your one-way continuous journey.
- Tap your PRESTO card on a reader every time you transfer."
I take this that POP is not required on buses. Therefore, if I am in the subway system when my 2hr period elapses, I will board a bus (that goes into the fare paid area) without tapping to not be dinged a second time.
steveintoronto
Superstar
^ Inconsistencies are rampant. Their public statements a few weeks back also clash with earlier statements. I've tried to find the latest statements, which have really softened, but have had no luck so far Googling for. I just don't have the right tags to get a hit, but I'll keep looking.
I'm also curious if they have actually done what they claimed they'd do with the 'info from the taps' they're asking for. I see no analysis, or even reference to future analysis of the taps not actually required.
Steve Munro has been very critical of the TTC in that regard.
I'm also curious if they have actually done what they claimed they'd do with the 'info from the taps' they're asking for. I see no analysis, or even reference to future analysis of the taps not actually required.
Steve Munro has been very critical of the TTC in that regard.
WillTo
Senior Member
According to the Fare Evasion report
Facepalms all around
- child Presto cards do not indicate to the driver that a child card was used. Since there is no enforcement on buses or within subways, people would get off scott free
- Fare Inspections do not happen when a streetcar is crowded. So basically you can ride streetcards for free during rush hour!
- Of 170 people caught off board, 71 just said the machine wasn't working and were on their way. Given the poor reliability of the machines, no charge would stand in court.
- Sometimes a Presto reader is broken and it is too congested to try another one
- Bus drivers are supposed to report broken Presto readers, but sometimes they go back on on their own so they don't know what to think anymore
- "Among the 15 subway stations we visited, in 14 of them within one to two hours of observation we noted multiple instances of fare gates not operating."
- "During our audit period, we noted that the crash gates at some stations were left open but unattended by staff and the fare boxes were closed. Passengers were able to go through the open gate without paying their fares (see the photo below). "
- "Based on our discussion with crash gate staff, they are instructed by TTC to lock their fare box during their scheduled 15-minute break, but they are unable to close the crash gate. Only the fare collector in the booth can close the gate using the computer system located inside the booth. "
- "Passengers who were found fraudulently using Child PRESTO cards included adults, post-secondary students, students, and a senior. We noted at times the passengers were carrying two PRESTO cards – an adult (or other appropriate concession) card that had not been tapped and was presented for inspection to the Transit Fare Inspector, and a Child card that was tapped and was also used at other times. "
- "It is important to note that during our six weeks of audit observation work on all three modes of transit and covering many different times of the day on TTC, we did not come across ANY children aged 12 and under using the Child PRESTO cards. We saw parents letting their children through the TTC fare gates and children walking onto the bus and streetcar for free, which is fine with the current fare policy " So Child cards are used more by fare evaders than actual children.
- Child Presto cards being sold on the internet, advertised as free TTC
Facepalms all around
steveintoronto
Superstar
^ I've seen a claim a few days back in the news (I have no reference handy) (gist) "It now costs the TTC more for Presto than it did before it was instituted". What you list alludes to that.
Also:
On Presto machines: I've seen a sudden surge of bad machines again. It's to the point that drivers don't care anymore. "Tap on the back one"...and they never check to see if that happens. I can't blame them. These are the machines that were touted to replace many of the staff. Why should they care if no-one cares about them? I'm stating that through their eyes, and I can understand if not agree with it.
Machines at stations too. Many of them on the fritz. Cue Metrolinx to say" Nothing to see here, move on".
Also:
And that's my observation on Bylaw 1. It's so fraught with inconsistencies that a JP would exclaim "I can't find guilt on the basis of this!"
On Presto machines: I've seen a sudden surge of bad machines again. It's to the point that drivers don't care anymore. "Tap on the back one"...and they never check to see if that happens. I can't blame them. These are the machines that were touted to replace many of the staff. Why should they care if no-one cares about them? I'm stating that through their eyes, and I can understand if not agree with it.
Machines at stations too. Many of them on the fritz. Cue Metrolinx to say" Nothing to see here, move on".
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Most new smartphones now come with facial recognition. Which means they can photograph fare offenders and keep a record of them. First time offenders could be left off with a warning, and a photo record. Second time and ... timers, with a facial record, not so lucky, getting a fine. Many time repeaters, should get a BIG fine or even jail time.
thettctransitfanatic
Senior Member
Not everyone can afford the newest smartphone, so that wouldn't be very useful. A good chunk of phone users using a phone that isn't the latest model so you know.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Not for the offenders to take selfies for the record, but for the fare inspectors with their TTC issued (smartphone-like) POP machines.
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thettctransitfanatic
Senior Member
. It makes sense
WillTo
Senior Member
A database of faces? Never gonna fly.
What we need is actual Transit police that can compel people to provide ID and if they don't, they should have the power to detain them.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Show me a twelve-year old or a thirteen-year old with ID. With photo recognition, they can ask why did they ignore the warning and be actually charged.
nfitz
Superstar
LOL! I'm certainly not letting my 11-year old take her passport to school in case she get's ID'd on the streetcar! She's very tall for her age too, I know smaller 13-year olds ...
With all the hassle, I don't really want her taking her Presto card most of the time, in case it got lost ... it's useful to get her through subway gates, but she's never had reason to take that by herself (though she easily could if we lived by a subway station instead of a streetcar stop).