Toronto Spadina Subway Extension Emergency Exits | ?m | 1s | TTC | IBI Group

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Again with this discussion I think the problem is that the riders crossing borders to head to York University shouldn't be the ones facing the brunt of this regional ineptitude towards fare integration. The end-user experience should be seamless, regardless of underlying problems of regional transit system.

Well said - that was my macro point. There are legit arguments to be made about how we fund cross-border travel etc. but all these political debates have unfair, real-world consequences for riders. To ignore them to explain that it's actually fair because of lines on maps and such, is (as I said) an acknowledgement of a fundamental failure by those responsible for transit in this region. START by thinking about the system's riders. In the meantime. every day it goes on at York is an embarrassing exposure of that failure.

Obviously Toronto expands service as a real-estate and political maneuver too; several examples of white elephant projects in the past. The difference is Toronto (via property taxes) has also paid the price (annually) to have service run.

They pay 25% of the cost. That means if a YR rider gets on at Finch and pays a $3 fare and a Torotonian does too, the Torontonian is contributing an additional 75 cents or so, each time. Not nothing but not enough to get high and mighty about, IMHO. If a Torontonian gets on YRT, BTW, they're getting a 40% free ride; if that's how we're determining what "paid the price" means. Of course, the math shouldn't be that simple because there are inumuerable economic benefits from reducing congestion and having people work and spend money downtown (or in the 905, for that matter); but we try to pretend it can be reduced to this simple calculus.

York Region got their cake from the province, convinced Toronto to pay for delivery of the cake, and now they're hoping for a repeat of that with Yonge while at the same time YRT riders complain to Toronto about paying double fares.

It's a fundamental issue that exists because of geography. Politics aside, I think most people can see the "unfairness" of charging a double fare for someone travel from just south of 7 to just north of Finch, which is where most of YR's population is. As I've said before, if you were looking at a satellite map and designing the transit system based on that, you would never draw a line at Steeles because there is no line to be preceived. The urban form is unbroken there. It's a seam, nothing more.

Anyway, as I said, I think the entire region should be paying into a pool (e.g. through road pricing) and then Torontonians would lose the barely-there, "we're paying for your transit..." (as if no other economic benefits follow) argument. If the argument is for fair funding, I'm down with that. But in the meantime, it shouldn't be used as a cudgel with which to hammer students and others who are suffering for the system's inefficiencies.

That multi-billion dollar BRT network which runs 15 minute frequencies most of the day is another example of mostly flash, no bang.

It ain't perfect - what is? - but evaluating it this early demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of its purpose. I'm sure ridership at Finch Station was through the roof in 1975, right? Too bad we didn't have these boards for people to complain about empty trains and how they'd extended the subway to a suburb with no density the way they're judging TYSSE here like the deal is done.

 

[smallspy]

They DID figure it out. There was an agreement that the travel would be free between 407 and York, with tap out enforcing it.

They didn't quite have an agreement, but it certainly sounded like they were well along in the process of coming to one.

Then the TTC just didn't do it. There wasn't even a moment I can recall them saying, or deciding, that they wouldn't follow through, they just haven't.

While I haven't been privy to the precise discussions, I'm not certain that it was TTC that said no. It just seems like things broke down late in the process.

Dan

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Who knows what happened behind closed doors? I think the only thing known for sure is they had some kind of deal where York would have charged students a fee, as part of their student fees that would have solved it. They chose not even to put it to a vote and that was the end of that. Lots of blame to go around.

I didn't see this article yesterday but it captures it. I'm happy to stand alongside the likes of Keenan and Peter Wallace saying the situation (to be nice) is "nonsensical."
I really don't get attempts to brush it off by resorting to who pays property taxes where. By any objective measure it's a failure of our public services.

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/sta...-because-our-governments-cant-co-operate.html

 

[raptor]

Why should a UofT student living in York Region pay a double fare, while a YorkU student living in York Region pay a single fare?
I smell a lot of entitlement on the side of YorkU students.
Also, I can't wait for Metrolinx to close down the York U GO station, as they were supposed to when TYSSE opened.

 

[innsertnamehere]

because York U is 1 stop into Toronto and it seems silly to pay a double fare to travel one stop on the subway.

 

[johntauren]

It's hardly entitlement to not want to pay an extra fare now when that is how it always operated before now, which increases the cost of commuting with zero benefit to the actual riders.

Coming from Brampton the situation is just as awkward, as if I want to travel to York Region, I can't take the express to York and transfer to YRT, I have to deal with going all the way down Highway 7 which is pretty lousy with construction west of 400.

 

[ShonTron]

Why should a UofT student living in York Region pay a double fare, while a YorkU student living in York Region pay a single fare?
I smell a lot of entitlement on the side of YorkU students.
Also, I can't wait for Metrolinx to close down the York U GO station, as they were supposed to when TYSSE opened.

Why should a TTC passenger pay only a TTC fare to go to Pearson Airport? It's in Mississauga, after all, and should be forced either to get off the bus and walk from Dixon Road and Carlingview or pay a Mississauga fare to go an extra stop. Otherwise, it's pure entitlement.

 

[raptor]

Why should a TTC passenger pay only a TTC fare to go to Pearson Airport? It's in Mississauga, after all, and should be forced either to get off the bus and walk from Dixon Road and Carlingview or pay a Mississauga fare to go an extra stop. Otherwise, it's pure entitlement.

a bit of an apples to oranges comparison, but I agree - the TTC passenger should pay a double fare to go to Pearson Airport.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Why should a UofT student living in York Region pay a double fare, while a YorkU student living in York Region pay a single fare?
I smell a lot of entitlement on the side of YorkU students.

This isn't about entitlement. It's entirely about perception.
You think (as Shontron points out) it's completely 'fair" and "makes sense" for someone to pay a single fare to travel from the Beach to York U while someone else pays a double fare to travel from Jane/7 to York U.

I think this is objectively and obviously patently absurd. It's only because Toronto exists as a tax-collecting entity that your view makes sense. It doesn't make sense for a human being trying to get from A to B and it doesn't make sense if you were an alien looking at the GTA from space. In terms of how human beings operate in physical reality, it's (as Keenan says) nonsensical. The entitlement comes entirely from people who say, "This is MY transit system, and you should use yours." It's all one system, as far as riders are concerned. We just don't operate or fund it that way. That's the disconnect. There's no "Brand loyalty" here. A rider from Brampton doesn't care if it's a Zum bus or GO or TTC that takes them to York; they care about the time, the convenience and the cost. (And if you want me to agree a YR rider shouldn't pay a double fare to go to York OR U of T, damn straight. There should be an extra - but not DOUBLE - fare to transfer between systems, whether you're going one stop or 15. York is a bit of a special case but that's why, as I said, it shines a spotlight on the larger issue.

The longstanding reality of transit fiefdoms is not reflective of our current reality, in which people cross borders, every day and in every way and will continue to do in increasing numbers. RER is demonstrative of the shift: GO once operated simply to shuttle people from the burbs to Union Station but now we need it to do more, because that's not the only movement that needs to be accommodated anymore. Maybe property taxpayers come out ahead, somehow, in your system. Transit riders definitely do not.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

Why should a TTC passenger pay only a TTC fare to go to Pearson Airport? It's in Mississauga, after all, and should be forced either to get off the bus and walk from Dixon Road and Carlingview or pay a Mississauga fare to go an extra stop. Otherwise, it's pure entitlement.

It's Missisauga's zone. In the same way, York U didn't want GO on their property cause it is their property, and that's the answer here.

 

[raptor]

This isn't about entitlement. It's entirely about perception.
You think (as Shontron points out) it's completely 'fair" and "makes sense" for someone to pay a single fare to travel from the Beach to York U while someone else pays a double fare to travel from Jane/7 to York U.

I think this is objectively and obviously patently absurd. It's only because Toronto exists as a tax-collecting entity that your view makes sense. It doesn't make sense for a human being trying to get from A to B and it doesn't make sense if you were an alien looking at the GTA from space. In terms of how human beings operate in physical reality, it's (as Keenan says) nonsensical. The entitlement comes entirely from people who say, "This is MY transit system, and you should use yours." It's all one system, as far as riders are concerned. We just don't operate or fund it that way. That's the disconnect. There's no "Brand loyalty" here. A rider from Brampton doesn't care if it's a Zum bus or GO or TTC that takes them to York; they care about the time, the convenience and the cost. (And if you want me to agree a YR rider shouldn't pay a double fare to go to York OR U of T, damn straight. There should be an extra - but not DOUBLE - fare to transfer between systems, whether you're going one stop or 15. York is a bit of a special case but that's why, as I said, it shines a spotlight on the larger issue.

The longstanding reality of transit fiefdoms is not reflective of our current reality, in which people cross borders, every day and in every way and will continue to do in increasing numbers. RER is demonstrative of the shift: GO once operated simply to shuttle people from the burbs to Union Station but now we need it to do more, because that's not the only movement that needs to be accommodated anymore. Maybe property taxpayers come out ahead, somehow, in your system. Transit riders definitely do not.

Look, I agree with all your points. There should be a sweet spot between a single and a double fare.
My point is, however, that people want to have their cake and eat it too. Students choose to live with their parents (say York Region for argument's sake) over dorms for cost savings. Heck, people in general choose, in part, to live in the burbs for cost savings' sake. Those same people then complain on the rising cost of living (including, but not limited to, cost of gasoline, cost of transit in this case). Living in the burbs does not guarantee a lower cost of living than living in TO proper.
Also, the fact that some service was provided previously, at a certain price point, does not guarantee this service won't change in the future.

 

[nfitz]

According to this media report, one student is claiming that “In all honesty it’s been a lot faster ... Before it was 30 minutes, it’s cut down at least 10 minutes." https://toronto.citynews.ca/2019/01/07/go-bus-service-to-york-u-has-officially-stopped/

I'm not surprised that this actually saves time in rush-hour. It's a shame that the provincial government couldn't have gotten their act together, and made it cost-neutral for students.

 

[rbt]

It ain't perfect - what is? - but evaluating it this early demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of its purpose. I'm sure ridership at Finch Station was through the roof in 1975, right? Too bad we didn't have these boards for people to complain about empty trains and how they'd extended the subway to a suburb with no density the way they're judging TYSSE here like the deal is done.

Finch usage is quite poor today too with fewer than 5k walk-ins per day. That station would be considered a design/operations failure in many cities because it requires massive additional bus operations in order to bring passengers to the station, rather than the station/lines being built where the passengers start/end their trips. If you redirected the buses to another service (ideally a rail station within walking distance of the passengers starting location) then Yonge north of Eglingon would be running trains at 10 minute frequencies with seats still available.

The number of riders looks impressive the way TTC reports them (not entry/exit to the system but platform level counts) but the TTC overall cost per passenger is quite large compared to lesser used minimal stations like Rosedale. Yonge north of about St. Clair likely would have been better served by 3 lighter mode parallel services on 3 different streets with 3 to 4km spacing between them.

So yeah, you're right, I wouldn't be very happy about the Finch proposal in the late 60's had I been around at the time; particularly if I had used some of the newly electrified (in 1960) London Overground services with expectations TTC or GO could build something similar through low density lands for future growth.

 

[Neutrino]

rather than the station/lines being built where the passengers start/end their trips.

Not really possible with Toronto's suburban built form.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Why should a TTC passenger pay only a TTC fare to go to Pearson Airport? It's in Mississauga, after all, and should be forced either to get off the bus and walk from Dixon Road and Carlingview or pay a Mississauga fare to go an extra stop. Otherwise, it's pure entitlement.

Trying to avoid wading into this discussion but I am sure I can find a destination a handful of km's from Pearson where the only way to get to it from toronto is a TTC bus to Pearson and a transfer to a MT bus (and a double fare). I can think of one routing because I did it. Where trying to get the West side of the airport (Infield Cargo, and other airport services) is only served by MT and required a double fare when coming form outside MT borders.

Each agency handles this situation differently, usually by crossing the "border" to drop passengers off at or close to the destination that most passengers are heading to. York has muddied the waters by demanding that there be no, or vastly fewer, buses on it's campus.