TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[drum118]

It becomes like the trucking industries just in time delivery going with airplanes than ships. It only takes a day or two of rough weather on the high seas to delay a ship making the port for it open slot time and have to wait until one opens if it is miss to load or off load causing a ripply effect down the line.

If something happens in the production lines that will delay getting it out the door to the docks, the ship will sail without it since they have tight schedules to keep and it could be a month or more before another ship can pick it up and more delays down the line. If an airplane is to fly the item and depending what is needed to fly the item, it possible the plane can wait for it at an extra cost or be put on another one within days causing some down the line issues.

The AN-124 could make a few stops before flying to Canada to pickup parts from other suppliers so they are all delivery at the same time in Toronto. Some items could go to Thunder Bay while others could go to Kingston or elsewhere as directed by BBD and we have no info on this at all at this time.

We now know 2 cabs are on their way to Thunder Bay, but are there more of them to be ship as well what else was on that plane?? It BBD dime to make sure Thunder Bay has what they need to meet the schedule even if it costing more in shipment.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Bombardier is contractually obligated to meet the target MDBF by time the 60th car is delivered. This is highly unlikely to happen. What happens when Bombardier fails to meet the target MDBF?

 

[rbt]

How much of a screw up is it if you miss the boat and have to hire a massive plane to get your parts delivered on time...love to be in that meeting...

Happens all the time. Like, weekly for a GM or Ford. More often than not, it's the manufacturer of the part who is paying for the faster shipping to prevent fees for late delivery.

That it travelled as freight, rather than a number of factory staff flying coach (on tickets bought an hour ago) with suitcases filled with components, is the notable bit.

 

[steveintoronto]

What happens when Bombardier fails to meet the target MDBF?

Baaaad things...very baaaad....or at least the words for the press releases. Then the "How many screw-ups does it take to screw in a light bulb at Toronto City Council?" jokes begin...

OK, I'll offer the first answer:

None! Because Council wasn't switched on to begin with!

 

[dowlingm]

What happens when Bombardier fails to meet the target MDBF?

supposition: nothing. Because Bombardier will accept the option deadline being moved to... car 90? in exchange for a new deadline (and maybe a new target)

 

[steveintoronto]

supposition: nothing. Because Bombardier will accept the option deadline being moved to... car 90? in exchange for a new deadline (and maybe a new target)

lol!

[[...the sound of crickets chirping...]]

 

[dowlingm]

lol!

[[...the sound of crickets chirping...]]

Neither party can afford a termination. Contracts are not holy writ.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

What I am curious about is how that spike in Jan/Feb happens - you'd think that's the period of time (winter) where failure rate should be the highest in the year.

AoD

 

[steveintoronto]

Contracts are not holy writ.

They are Law. If the consequences of repeated violations of a contract aren't administered, the party responsible, in many cases, this one included, will continue to realize there are no consequences and continue doing same.

It seems some have the backbone to stand up to incompetence, and know when to cut their losses:

Mayor of London and the London Assembly
11 March 2016
Bombardier: Why TfL didn't spot the signals

• TfL spent £85m to get out of a failed signalling contract
• It now has almost £900 million less to spend on transport improvements
• Tube upgrade programme is five years behind schedule

Today the London Assembly Budget and Performance Committee releases the report “Transport for London’s Signal Failure”[1] – which examines the circumstances behind the appointment of Bombardier Transport to upgrade signalling on the District, Circle, Metropolitan and Hammersmith & City lines.

Transport for London (TfL) ultimately paid £85 million to cancel the contract with Bombardier Transport in 2013, two years after appointment, but the ramifications of the deal are still being felt. The Sub-Surface Upgrade Programme (SSUP) is now five years behind schedule and is forecast to cost nearly £900 million more than originally expected. [2]

A culmination of nearly three years’ work scrutinising TfL’s Sub-Surface Upgrade Programme, the report highlights how poor commercial expertise and a lack of IT procurement skills left TfL ill-prepared to appoint a suitable contractor for the project, and vulnerable enough to be duped into a contract which Bombardier was never able to deliver.

It draws attention to a culture at TfL which meant that management was only interested in presenting good news and was in denial about the progress and effectiveness of the programme, allowing it to continue for much longer than it should have.

Appointing Bombardier and then waiting over two years to end the contract has bigger long term costs for TfL and Londoners. Eleven million fewer journeys than expected will take place on the underground per year between 2017 and 2023: which is estimated will cost TfL another £271 million in lost fares.


John Biggs AM, Chairman of the Budget and Performance Committee, said:

“This is nothing short of a disaster for London. Neither TfL nor Bombardier’s management teams were up to the task of managing the programme, but it is Londoners that will ultimately pay the price in travel delays and inefficiencies.”

What is most remarkable about this affair is that no-one in TfL has been held to account, and the Mayor, who chairs its board, serenely and indifferently acts as if a £900 million increase to the budget isn’t an issue. In government, heads – political or official – would roll after such financial mismanagement. At TfL the key players have been promoted and nobody was to blame. It is a scandal. ”


Notes to editors

1. The Committee’s report is available here and below.
2. TfL has since increased the budget for the signalling element of the Sub-Surface Upgrade Programme by £886 million.
3. John Biggs AM, Chair of the Budget & Performance Committee is available for interview. See contact details below.
4. The key responsibility of the Budget and Performance Committee is its annual scrutiny of the Mayor’s budget proposals for the next financial year. This involves detailed examination of the Mayor’s plans for spending his budget to help ensure taxpayers’ money is spent appropriately and effectively.
5. As well as investigating issues that matter to Londoners, the London Assembly acts as a check and a balance on the Mayor.

https://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/assembly/mind-the-900m-gap

What I am curious about is how that spike in Jan/Feb happens - you'd think that's the period of time (winter) where failure rate should be the highest in the year.
AoD

It is contra-indicated...if not just bizarre. I wonder if the chart wasn't accidentally inverted? There's a story of some sort behind that. The only sense I can make of that is components that dissipate heat running at a lower thermal grade due to the cooler air temps, but almost all failures are mechanical. And cold-weather makes metal more brittle.

 

[dowlingm]

They are Law. If the consequences of repeated violations of a contract aren't administered, the party responsible, in many cases, this one included, will continue to realize there are no consequences and continue doing same.


It seems some have the backbone to stand up to incompetence, and know when to cut their losses

except your penchant for interminably posting reams of precedent has not recalled that TTC has terminated a signal contract themselves - on Line 1. "They are Law" - ask Metrolinx how that worked out when they went to court against Bombardier. If similar dispute mechanisms exist in TTC's contract, the same outcome may result - lots of legal costs and uncertainty about plan B, and TTC doesn't have Metrolinx' choice of where to run other vehicles.

Yes, TTC could seek specific performance against Bombardier but that is one of several options they can look at. At the last commission meeting, deferring the option take up was specifically mentioned. That is easier to get when you give consideration in return, and deferring option take up means Bombardier will be inconvenienced since it delays the planning of the supply chain for those cars, which are already going to have a higher cost to Bombardier by being delivered years later than when the option price was negotiated.

Bombardier are making what seem to be good faith efforts to deal with production rate and there is mention of the "golden car" to address reliability.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Who actually reads (and understands) some of the "agreements" one clicks on websites, for example?

See this link, for an extreme example. Here's a partial list:

Disclaimer


Do not remove this disclaimer under penalty of law.

For optimum performance and safety, please read these instructions carefully.

Void where prohibited. No representation or warranty, express or implied, with respect to the completeness, accuracy, fitness for a particular purpose, or utility of these materials or any information or opinion contained herein. Actual mileage may vary. Prices slightly higher west of the Mississippi. All models over 18 years of age. No animals were harmed during the production of this product. Any resemblance to actual people, living or dead, or events, past, present or future, is purely coincidental. This product not to be construed as an endorsement of any product or company, nor as the adoption or promulgation of any guidelines, standards or recommendations. Some names have been changed to protect the innocent. This product is meant for educational purposes only. Some assembly required. Batteries not included. Package sold by weight, not volume. Contents may settle during shipment. No user-serviceable parts inside. Use only as directed.

Do not eat. Not a toy.

Postage will be paid by addressee. If condition persists, consult your physician. Subject to change without notice. Times approximate. One size fits all. Colors may, in time, fade. For office use only. Edited for television. List was current at time of printing. At participating locations only. Keep away from fire or flame. Avoid contact with skin. Sanitised for your protection. Employees and their families are not eligible. Beware of the dog. Limited time offer. No purchase necessary. Not recommended for children under 12. Prerecorded for this time zone. Some of the trademarks mentioned in this product appear for identification purposes only. Freshest if eaten before date on carton. Subject to change without notice. Please allow 4 to 6 weeks for delivery. Not responsible for direct, indirect, incidental or consequential damages resulting from any defect, error or failure to perform. Slippery when wet. Substantial penalty for early withdrawal. For recreational use only. No Canadian coins. List each check separately by bank number. This is not an offer to sell securities...

 

[steveintoronto]

except your penchant for interminably posting reams of precedent has not recalled that TTC has terminated a signal contract themselves - on Line 1. "They are Law" - ask Metrolinx how that worked out when they went to court against Bombardier. If similar dispute mechanisms exist in TTC's contract, the same outcome may result - lots of legal costs and uncertainty about plan B, and TTC doesn't have Metrolinx' choice of where to run other vehicles.

Your ability to understand what's transpired legally so far is limited, to say the least.

It was an *injunction* against *invoking the contractual language* that keys a legal dispute resolution (which is still pending) that occurred. There's a lot to be decided by the Law yet.

In brief:

[...]
The judge's ruling means the "mandatory multi-step dispute resolution process" must be followed. In effect, it compels both sides to go back to the bargaining table to work out a solution.
[...]
The court ruling means the contract could still be nixed, but a lengthy process must be undertaken before that happens.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/metrolinx-bombardier-light-rail-1.4075589

I'll dig on more specific legal analyses if that isn't sufficient for the point...

Edit to Add: Legal minutia besides, how about just honest diaglog?

Bombardier tour to reassure Edmonton train commitments on track
Elise Stolte
Published on: July 10, 2017

Bombardier officials on a stop in Edmonton are promising the new Valley Line LRT rail cars will be a “showcase” project that leave supply chain troubles in the distant past.

“You’re getting the best of Bombardier,” said Benoit Brossoit, the company’s president for the Americas Region.

“For us, Edmonton is going to be a showcase of what we really can do,” he said while sitting down with the Edmonton Journal after touring construction already underway — the new line will run between downtown and Mill Woods — and meeting with city officials.

Years of delay and defects for Toronto’s new streetcars — a similar model to Edmonton’s — have left Bombardier’s reputation bruised. The company was two years late on delivery of its first cars and had to revise the schedule multiple times, leaving citizens of Toronto stranded as the old fleet kept breaking down.

But Brossoit is now selling a message that those issues are fixed. The company invested $11 million into a new Kingston, Ont., facility in part to accommodate production of Edmonton’s new rail cars. Manufacturing, he said, is on schedule.

Even for Toronto, said Brossoit, “since about this time last year, we haven’t missed one commitment. We’re pretty proud of that.” [...]

http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loc...-reassure-edmonton-train-commitments-on-track

Faulty points...

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Isn't the closest airport to Thunder Bay Winnipeg? Not Toronto? I can understand if this Antonov is shipping Flexity Freedom cabs to Kingston why it would land in Toronto. But if it has Outlook cabs landing in Winnipeg would halve the shipping time from the airport to BBD plant in Thunder Bay.

It could come down to size of the airport and the cargo facilities. Person has a very large cargo facility that they can hold many cargo planes of any size in Winnipeg may not have the space for the Antonov to park and unload its cargo.

 

[books]

Some assembly required. Batteries not included.

I think I saw this label on a Flexity the other day.

 

[drum118]

If everything on an AN-125 was going to Thunder Bay depending on the amount of fuel it can carry, can the plane reach Winnipeg from the last stop in Europe?? Since the AN-125 has a wing span of 240 ft, is there room in Winnipeg to off load the cargo?? If so, then Winnipeg would be the choice of airport using runway 18/36 since its 11,000 ft long.

I am sure and could be wrong, everything on the AN-125 is not going to Thunder Bay, but to Kingston as well and maybe somewhere else. Therefore, Pearson is the airport of choices regardless the extra travel cost and time from Winnipeg vs Toronto.

It looks like all cabs will be coming from Europe now for all 3 orders. The plane can hold over a dozen cabs easy, but how many are being ship in at a time is unknown unless someone has first hand inside info??

2 week to go for those other 2 cars due this month and could be push into Aug for a total of 4 that month.