Metrolinx: Bombardier Flexity Freedom & Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs

[TheTigerMaster]

Could resurrect a Finch Subway instead.

Would still be a better investment than SmartTrack

 

[W. K. Lis]

Metrolinx to consider Bombardier competitors for Finch West LRT

Metrolinx and Infrastructure Ontario are seeking other potential vehicle suppliers for one of their Toronto LRT lines.

From link.

With Bombardier struggling to deliver vehicles for Ontario light rail projects on time, the province has decided to give the company some competition.

A provincial source confirmed that Metrolinx and Infrastructure Ontario are seeking other potential vehicle suppliers for one of their Toronto LRT lines. The agencies have told the three consortia bidding on the Finch West LRT that they can include a vehicle supplier as part of their bids.

The new instructions from the province mean that Bombardier may be dropped as the vehicle supplier for Finch. The bidding process is scheduled to close in February.

Infrastructure Ontario referred questions about Finch vehicles to Metrolinx, the provincial transit agency for the GTHA. Metrolinx wouldn’t comment in detail on vehicle procurement for the line.

“Metrolinx is exploring all options. No decision has been made at this point,” wrote agency spokesperson Anne Marie Aikins in an email.

Metrolinx placed a $770-million order with Bombardier in 2010 for up to 182 vehicles to run on Ontario LRT lines, including 76 vehicles for the Eglinton Crosstown and 23 for the Finch Ave. West route.

But the company has fallen behind schedule on the order. It was originally supposed to supply the pilot vehicle for the Eglinton Crosstown in 2014, but that date was later revised to Spring 2015. The company missed both deadlines. In July the company pledged to deliver the pilot by the end of August. Metrolinx still hasn’t received it.

In a sign that Metrolinx was growing impatient with Bombardier, this summer the agency issued the company a notice of default claiming it was in breach of contract because of the delays.

In addition to trouble with the Metrolinx order, Bombardier has also been unable to meet the original timelines for delivering the TTC’s new fleet of 204 streetcars. The company was supposed to have supplied 73 by the end of 2015, but as of this week the TTC has only 24 in service.

Under the latest revised schedule, Bombardier has pledged to deliver a total of 30 streetcars by the end of 2016. TTC CEO Andy Byford said Wednesday that he has received assurances from the company that it will be able to supply six more cars over the remaining 13 weeks of the year, but that he remains concerned.

“I’ve had more schedules (from Bombardier) than streetcars, so I have a healthy skepticism,” he said.

Selecting another company to supply the Finch vehicles could lead to a messy legal dispute between the province and the Quebec-based rail manufacturer. Bombardier spokesman Marc-Andre Lefebvre said Wednesday that the company intends to follow through on the original contract.

“Bombardier signed a contract in June 2010 to supply 182 light rail vehicles to Metrolinx. And so, we will manufacture and deliver 182 vehicles to Metrolinx, as per our contractual obligations,” he wrote in an email.

Lefebvre said that Bombardier has assembled the pilot for the Crosstown and conducted a “walkthrough” of the vehicle with Metrolinx last week. He said the company will deliver it to Metrolinx once the inspection and testing process is complete.

News that the province is amenable to finding alternate suppliers for Finch is being welcomed by other companies that say they would be able to supply vehicles for the LRT, a $1-billion, 11-km line that would run between Humber College and Finch Station on the Spadina subway extension.

“If indeed Ontario is open to other vehicle vendors, we clearly want to participate in the tendering/procurement process,” said Michelle Stein, a spokesperson for French manufacturer Alstom, which is building light rail vehicles for Ottawa’s LRT project. “Alstom believes an open bidding policy would help the owner contain costs, guarantee timely delivery of equipment and bring the latest proven technology and innovation.”

They should have made it a race. First one to deliver the prototype (according to the specs) will win.

 

[Steve X]

Metrolinx to consider Bombardier competitors for Finch West LRT

Metrolinx and Infrastructure Ontario are seeking other potential vehicle suppliers for one of their Toronto LRT lines.

From link.



They should have made it a race. First one to deliver the prototype (according to the specs) will win.

No one is going spend money if they don't win the contract unless Metrolinx pays for the unfinished prototype from the losers.

For the TTC, this means twice the training for two different fleets. I wonder how different is the BBD prototype from the current streetcars from an operating perspective. Either way, I don't think it would be that difficult to drive one once they know how to drive a new streetcar.

 

[drum118]

No one is going spend money if they don't win the contract unless Metrolinx pays for the unfinished prototype from the losers.

For the TTC, this means twice the training for two different fleets. I wonder how different is the BBD prototype from the current streetcars from an operating perspective. Either way, I don't think it would be that difficult to drive one once they know how to drive a new streetcar.

Talk to Budapest, Berlin, Prague and Vienna, who have different fleet of lowfloor cars today to see if they have problems with them as well having to train operators for them.

If the cab is spec correctly to match what TTC has today, operators will have no issues driving either fleet with some training, not like it is going from existing to new.

There is a big different going from the existing fleet to the new one.

Final price will determine who gets the order along with the time frame to delivery them. Just because someone can build a prototype faster doesn't mean they can build the order as fast.

If Metrolinx wants orders based on fast delivery of 2 prototype cars, they will have to cover the cost for all bidders/builders, otherwise no one will build them on spec. With at least 7 supplier waiting for a crack at this order, thats about $70 million upfront cost and not going to happen.

 

[Steve X]

Talk to Budapest, Berlin, Prague and Vienna, who have different fleet of lowfloor cars today to see if they have problems with them as well having to train operators for them.

If the cab is spec correctly to match what TTC has today, operators will have no issues driving either fleet with some training, not like it is going from existing to new.

There is a big different going from the existing fleet to the new one.

Final price will determine who gets the order along with the time frame to delivery them. Just because someone can build a prototype faster doesn't mean they can build the order as fast.

If Metrolinx wants orders based on fast delivery of 2 prototype cars, they will have to cover the cost for all bidders/builders, otherwise no one will build them on spec. With at least 7 supplier waiting for a crack at this order, thats about $70 million upfront cost and not going to happen.

I just throw that out there cause Finch isn't getting that many cars. Just 23 cars with probably 9 trains of 2 LRVs in peak hours. The number probably drives down to 6 trains in off peak and weekends. I don't exactly think TTC likes a small fleet but they don't have the final say. All the cities you mention all have a much later fleet of one type. That said, you're right that it wouldn't matter too much. Plus TTC doesn't even maintain them so there's no part supply issue that they really hate with a small fleet.

I imagine they can just create one division handling both lines with one spareboard pool of crews and train everyone.

 

[drum118]

I just throw that out there cause Finch isn't getting that many cars. Just 23 cars with probably 9 trains of 2 LRVs in peak hours. The number probably drives down to 6 trains in off peak and weekends. I don't exactly think TTC likes a small fleet but they don't have the final say. All the cities you mention all have a much later fleet of one type. That said, you're right that it wouldn't matter too much. Plus TTC doesn't even maintain them so there's no part supply issue that they really hate with a small fleet.

I imagine they can just create one division handling both lines with one spareboard pool of crews and train everyone.

I wouldn't call 60 cars for TTC a small fleet with option for more. They now have the option to do so based on what happening with Metrolinx now.

BBD is in breach of contract and TTC has the legal rights to go elsewhere on the option. A number of system in Europe decided to look elsewhere than using the option on the current order.

Budapest just got a small order for the longest cars worldwide from CAF and operates them on the same lines as Siemens.

Even Vienna getting a small order compare to the whole system. BBD is getting the order and replacing Siemens.

All the cities I noted have 3 or more different manufactures.

Its possible Mississauga and Hamilton could be part of Finch order or could be a separate RFP, which should happen. If it did, we may see 3-5 different suppliers for Ontario.

 

[Steve X]

I wouldn't call 60 cars for TTC a small fleet with option for more. They now have the option to do so based on what happening with Metrolinx now.

BBD is in breach of contract and TTC has the legal rights to go elsewhere on the option. A number of system in Europe decided to look elsewhere than using the option on the current order.

Budapest just got a small order for the longest cars worldwide from CAF and operates them on the same lines as Siemens.

Even Vienna getting a small order compare to the whole system. BBD is getting the order and replacing Siemens.

All the cities I noted have 3 or more different manufactures.

Its possible Mississauga and Hamilton could be part of Finch order or could be a separate RFP, which should happen. If it did, we may see 3-5 different suppliers for Ontario.

I never said anything about the 60 car option. TTC could order more than 60 cars in the next decade. I'm all for replacing that order. That said, I wonder if Alstom could develop something good enough for the TTC at a decent price.

 

[drum118]

I never said anything about the 60 car option. TTC could order more than 60 cars in the next decade. I'm all for replacing that order. That said, I wonder if Alstom could develop something good enough for the TTC at a decent price.

TTC will have some hard choices to make by June 2017 if they will stay the course or put things on hold for a few years. They should make the call to issue a tender for the 60 plus cars by year end with an ASP delivery.

Unless the failure reach 35,000 km or close to it by the time the 60th car shows, up from the current 5,000 km, TTC has to hit the stop production button until the issues around the failure is resolve. This also applies to Metrolinx and not sure what that car number is.

Depending where things are when the 60th car shows up, TTC may cancel the order all together and retender it, causing at least 3 years delay getting more cars.

As for Metrolinx, it could see the Crosstown Line not open as schedule by a few years, as well having to pay for the line even thought it not in service. Depending on who gets the Finch order, options could be added to produce X cars for the Crosstown Line. If Metrolinx goes out for tender by year end and awarding a contact by June 2017, the first prototype could be here in 2019 for testing. It would have to be ship to Kitchener for testing since the line will be built there before then.

Right now based and what I have seen and heard, the Chinese company will low ball the order to get their foot into the NA market. The Koreans did this some years ago for Metrolink order. Until bids are open, only a guessing game at this time as who will bid and what the price may look like.

At the end of the day, BBD will have some huge bills to pay for this mess.

 

[Steve X]

Producing a standard car that can run on all new systems on the world is easy. Modifying the design so it doesn't derail in TTC yard's 10.6m radius tracks is much more difficult. The TTC seems to want to wait for the mess to clear up. I don't even get why they can't build a proper car to begin when they been doing so for 20+ years in Europe.

There's no need to ship to Kitchener. The test track between Mount Dennis and Keelesdale station should be up and running by 2019. Both stations should be close to finished while the elevated section is to be erected in 2018.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Bombardier completes first delivery of horse-drawn omnibuses to TTC



From link.

After more than a century of delays, the TTC has received the new omnibuses it ordered to replace the aging wagons used on the Cabbagetown – St. Lawrence line.

“These new omnibuses will reduce congestion and commute times for the growing Irish communities of Corktown” said Pierre Lemieux, spokesperson for the company’s Transportation for the Americas division. “While of course we regret the delays, these omnibuses will afford commuters more time to spend with their families and at work in the abattoir.”

Following the first five decades of omnibus delays, Toronto officials hoped to find a more reliable supplier while using pedicabs as a stopgap, according to TTC CEO Andy Byford. But contract cancellation fees and the invention of the internal combustion engine rendered procurement plans for the pedicabs unfeasible.

In response to possible legal action, Bombardier says it modified its production line processes to increase capacity, replacing its standard smithing process with the new ‘welding’ technique introduced in other companies around the world.

Even with the order now fulfilled, transit advocates say the new omnibuses are too little too late.

“Toronto must build transit in the new neighbourhoods south of Bloor, even if it means our fair Protestant residents must further burden themselves with the presence of that degenerate papist race,” said 172 year old Toronto city councillor Enoch Dumphries III, as he sipped a brandy from his wheelchair.

“But this is simply not enough. Railways! Railways! Railways! I say.”

At press time, Toronto city council was entering its 70th year of deliberations on the route for the proposed Downtown Relief Zeppelin.​

 

[smallspy]

I never said anything about the 60 car option. TTC could order more than 60 cars in the next decade. I'm all for replacing that order. That said, I wonder if Alstom could develop something good enough for the TTC at a decent price.

They wouldn't the first time. What makes you think that they would now?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[44 North]

They wouldn't the first time. What makes you think that they would now?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Could they not in the past because of technical issues, or was it because Made in Canada manufacturing issues? I still think if it is because of technical issues that it might be a good idea to split up the legacy network so that we don't have a one-size-fits-all approach to vehicle procurement. The Outlook can run on the technically-challenging sections, and the Alstom or Siemens can run on the more straightforward routes.

 

[Steve X]

They wouldn't the first time. What makes you think that they would now?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Alstom seems to be more willing to enter the North American market now compared to a decade ago but I doubt they'll be able to supply any LRVs at the price BBD is doing.

 

[cplchanb]

Considering the close proximity of the factory to Toronto, it would be safe to say noone can undercut bbr. Perhaps if the competition can establish a production plant eventually they can compete on price while maintaining profitability as well

 

[Steve X]

Considering the close proximity of the factory to Toronto, it would be safe to say noone can undercut bbr. Perhaps if the competition can establish a production plant eventually they can compete on price while maintaining profitability as well

There isn't enough demand that another company (Alstom, Siemens, etc.) start a full production factory in the GTA. A order of 20 cars each for Hurontario and Hamilton don't justify such thing. TTC's streetcars are too complicated that hardly anyone placed a bid. The only big projects available in the next decade are the T1 subway replacement and supplying Locomotives for Metrolinx.

These companies are better off shipping parts to Canada and using the new carhouse as their assembly site like in Ottawa.