Hamilton: General Service Discussion

[DC83]

Has a gondola ever been studied by Hamilton in the past? I think it'd be pretty sweet, and would be a great attraction for the city.

No it's just always thrown in as a way of distracting from the HSR's real issues (such as:
-Implementing BLAST,
-Getting rid of Area Rating,
-Re-Drawing Bus Routes based on BLAST
-Improve or implement service to growing areas such as Binbrook & Winona,
-Building a new maintenance shed

They aren't a nesessity in Hamilton's true transit needs. Like you said, they're an attraction (or distraction I suppose).

 

[mdrejhon]

Please no more Highrises (or gondola towers / wires / 'buckets') destroying the natural beauty of the Niagara Escarpment.

IMO anything along the edge like those buildings you refer to should be no taller than 4 storeys. Granted those particular buildings and its land are ripe for redevelopment!

The Mount Tremblant gondola station is only 1.5 to 2 stories high.
Wheelchair accessible!!! (Look at the wheelchair logo)
Level boarding!!!
They paid only 7 million for more than 5 kilometers... Hamilton is only 500 meter.
The microcapsules detach from the cable and crawl slowly before reattaching to the cable, and are pauseable for a wheelchair to wheel onto.

Yes, it's wheelchair accessible -- look at the blue wheelchair logo. It's not a whoosh-by capsule, the capsules crawl slow -- and actually temporarily stops if necessary to let people board -- and the station is tiny as you can see above.

And the gondola towers would be high enough in our case, to bring the gondolas above the trees. In fact, the poles might be able to avoid escarpment land if cleverly designed. The area is away from residential areas, given the corner of Gage Park is an industrial area. A conversation with Niagara Escarpment Commission would be necessary, to figure out what the options are -- but that's also the job of a Feasibility Study / Environmental Assessment. Gondolas can be quite beautiful in comparision to many options -- like Claremont which did orders of magnitude more damage through the escarpment. No dynamiting for a diagonal incline is needed, like for an incline railway. It might raise the cost of gondolas to use fewer/higher towers, but options would come up in a Feasibility Study.

Again, we're not talking about that skyscraper gondola station in Brazil, or oversized aerial tram stations, or Whistler Peak-to-Peak.... one has to stop thinking about that oversize "white elephants" or "luxury gondolas".

A website will eventually launch within a few years to help do this sort of gondola mythbusting, and de-distractionize / de-laughingstockize. (I have personally agreed to some people that I'd help with this website, as part of a future gondola advocacy!)

Mount Tremblant only spent 7 million dollars building a gondola all the way to the top of the mountain (about 5 kilometers).

The Gage-Mountain gondola is only 1/10th the length.

Some people even think a Gage-Mountain basic gondola would cost only $2-3 million, especialy if mini open-buckets are chosen, but I think enclosed capsules (even if Tremblant-sized microcapsules) are better for Hamilton's cold winter and nighttime operation.

For a short 500 meter Escarpment run (less than one tenth Tremblant), a gondola only needs to run barely double walking speed, to make it a quick 3-minute cross-escarpment trip.

Run at slow speeds (double walking speed) maintenance requirements is dramatically reduced, it is operable by only two staff -- one at top and one at bottom (though four is recommended, for safety purposes), and operating costs are kept really low -- far less per passenger even when running 90% empty -- and easily handling surge moments (Gage events, Tim Horton's Field, Concession/Ottawa BIA, future KingCrawl events in post-LRT era, etc). It only takes 3-digit passengers per day to break even and pay into a cable-replacement fund (when it wears out in a decade or two), even if there are moments where the gondola is paused because it's currently empty for 15 minutes (e.g. rainy winter night). That doesn't make the gondola unprofitable, as the daytime traffic and event surge traffic, all evens it out -- and still ends up being profitable.

That's why we only need a 4-person microcapsule like the above, not a NYC mega tram...

 

[mdrejhon]

No it's just always thrown in as a way of distracting from the HSR's real issues (such as:
-Implementing BLAST,.

Agreed

-Getting rid of Area Rating,

Agreed

-Re-Drawing Bus Routes based on BLAST

Agreed

(and the team behind the LRT advocacy will focus on this in due time, too)

-Improve or implement service to growing areas such as Binbrook & Winona,

Agreed

-Building a new maintenance shed

Agreed

They aren't a nesessity in Hamilton's true transit needs. Like you said, they're an attraction (or distraction I suppose).

It's only a distraction right now.

Disagreed after 2019, if this gondola is privately funded. It's cheap enough that most of the work can be done without the city, with a fully private funded gondola study that can later be pitched to the city.

...for now I am quitely working on behind the scenes stuff relating to a Gage-Mountain gondola. Once the LRT is under construction and other talk is under way, a privately funded Gage-Mountain gondola makes sense.

My view is a gondola is up and running Gage-Mountain by ~2025ish, privately funded.

Also, over the last two months, some Ward 7 byelection candidates (four!) have actually came to meet me (along with some others) in person to discuss transit issues since they recognize I'm one of the local citizen experts, which included chatting about the LRT advocacy, what mistakes to avoid (e.g. trying to do the Ford method of trying to change routes) and they all even like the gondola idea, when the timing is appropriate.

In my coffee meetings and others with them -- most seeked me out (LRT publicity advice to byelection candidates!), I have told the Ward 7 candidates they probably should not talk about gondolas too much because it is a distraction/laughingstock -- so I think, DC83, you are probably glad I said that. For the record, all Ward 7 byelection candidates that approached me, all liked gondolas in due time.

However, behind the scene work on gondolas definitely is quietly continuing within multiple parties (some of it independently before some matchmaking happened). Some of which I am not at liberty to say. That said, if one of you readers, by any chance, is an investor, send me a PM, as I have matchmaking/due diligence, connecting up people who's not aware of each other... There are people like you out there who's looking for additional investors as well. The idea, is, at some point, a finished shovel-ready privately funded carrot of a proposal (with a finished professional feasibility study by a party) will have to be dangled to the City, but they're not there yet. It's only currently in the pre-feasibility stage / brain-picking / investor-recruiting stage (I'd wager enough investors now exist to fund a double-digit percentage of the gondola), but things are happening a little faster than I expected on this front.

Not too hush-hush, but not media-splashy, as a little dangling is needed to recruit additional people to the incredible gondola advocates/volunteers/investors/etc privately researching and pushing the gondola forward. I don't expect loud publicity until after 2019, when LRT is safely under construction. But I will certainly be involved!

 

[mdrejhon]

And, timely, another Hamilton Gondola article -- January 14th, 2016:

http://gondolaproject.com/2016/01/14/we-dont-know-what-we-dont-know/

They are one of the teams I'm continually consulting with....and I'm just a pawn of one of the many, many people 'educating' behind the scenes about gondolas not being pie-in-sky junk, misconceptions, myths, and silly "tourist only bias" notions...

__________

IMHO, the topic of escarpment gondolas it will be de-distractionized and de-laughingstockized as much as possible within 10-15 years (and I'm prodding for sooner: 2025; once LRT is safely in the ground and A-Line LRT extension work is continuing uninterfered by gondola), even if it has to go the privately funded route as a pilot for the first one.

For those with Environmental Concerns:
Regarding concerns of the environment as some have indicated -- it really is one of the only escarpment-friendly way to additional escarpment accesses with minimum possible damage/modification to escarpment -- towers may even avoid escarpment lands altogether, and towers/wires sufficiently high enough to avoid cutting down escarpment trees -- (and separately, the city said they are apparently going to be cutting a small number of trees at some of the lookouts at the top, anyway -- to improve lookout views). It may even be able avoid building towers on Niagara Escarpment lands, making NEC approval easier (many options exist).

For those with Noise Concerns:
They're / We're even aware of neighborhood noise concerns, and that's a secondary reasons why the gondola would be run so slowly (10kph -- only barely double the typical walking speed of 5kph). But fortunately, it's extremely short (10kph over 500 meters = 3 minutes) which means the ride will only lengthen to 3 minutes, which is still a short ride. With optimal parameters, the click-click of gondolas going through the tower wheels can be made inaudible to the nearest residence on Concession. This is above-and-beyond the fact they engineered modern gondolas (now targeted to urban areas) in a way to reduce the noise of this even further.

As an additional bonus, slow operating speed means low maintenance and long period between cable replacement (wear and tear cost will be extremely low); making it possible to keep gondola fares low and still profitable at >90% average empty (surge-quite moments nature) at bus-style fares instead of tourist-style fares, despite being privately operated.

Obviously studies are needed first, but it's pretty relieving to know that lots of progress has been made in all the above...

 

[mdrejhon]

On a different subject than gondolas, I've just noticed Hamilton West Harbour GO station road access (to kiss-n-ride) is almost ready:

(Credit: me)

(Credit: me)

Also, cycling has noticeably increased this winter versus last winter. Even with snow, I saw several cyclists near Barton/Cannon. A new RTH article about the increasing winter cycling occuring in Hamilton, complete with nearly a dozen photos.

(Credit: RTH)

It is consistent with my observations - I went to 541 Cafe today, and saw four cyclists on Cannon when I crossed Cannon. Though, some parts of the day is quiet then you see a surge of a few cyclists. Still much smaller than Toronto, but it's certainly bigger 2015-2016 than 2014-2015 in large part to finally improving bike infrastructure.

 

[drum118]

Photos for West Harbour shot on Dec 26 are in the GO Project thread as well on by site.

Striping for parking was missing for the deck that day.

 

[mdrejhon]

Yes, the wonderful Hamilton Junction Expansion pix and the West Harbour pix

(BTW, drum118, I complimented on those earlier too. Just now sent you a PM. I'd like to use your photos in GO Article #3 (my previous articles) targeted to Hamilton residents, and would like to ask for permission (with credit) to use your pix in a Hamilton Junction construction section of the article.)

Hamilton-area readers, including new members (...I referred one recently...) -- check drum118's Hamilton construction pix out, if you haven't yet -- most are normally posted in the general GTHA-wide GO construction thread.

FYI -- I decided to post my own WH photos in this thread, along with the bicycle update -- since this thread steered too much towards gondolas. Basically, to keep a bit of diversity in general transportation issues. While gondolas are very important, it's a bit early for me to be too loud about gondolas given the behind-the-scenes gondola due diligence progressing, and the need to keep LRT and other issues on track.

 

[drum118]

Hundreds of millions needed for Hamilton Mountain express-bus plan

 

[mdrejhon]

Hundreds of millions needed for Hamilton Mountain express-bus plan

A city staffer attended our Sherman Hub LRT presentation and handed me that exact same yellow printout pictured in that news article.

drum118, do you mind if I include your Hamilton Junction photos (with full credit to you) in an upcoming article I'm writing for raisethehammer.org?

 

[drum118]

A city staffer attended our Sherman Hub LRT presentation and handed me that exact same yellow printout pictured in that news article.

drum118, do you mind if I include your Hamilton Junction photos (with full credit to you) in an upcoming article I'm writing for raisethehammer.org?

I sent you an OK sometime ago

 

[mdrejhon]

I sent you an OK sometime ago

Oh! I somehow missed that. And the PM system here is more hidden than most other forums,

Thanks!

 

[DC83]

It's only a distraction right now.

Exactly!! Thank You!
Which is why it's detrimental.
I'm not sure how long you've been in Hamilton, or how familiar you are with how city staff 'gather' public opinion (aka they direct the public towards their opinion -- look back to 1999 and the city logo competition).

So here's my fear;
"Hey Mountain Residents! Now, we only have XYZ Millions of dollars for better transit to get you home up the mountain. Would you prefer these sweet, cool, modern gondolas like a ski resort? Or these big, loud, poor-people buses?"

If we want to talk about gondolas, let's wait until all my previous points have been met. Then and only then would it be worth a discussion.

Let's get our sub-par transit system operating properly before these other 'wants'!

 

[doady]

Ridership per capita, 2003-2013

Municipality    Riders2003 Riders2013 Change
Waterloo Region 29.3       50.5       +21.2
Brampton        22.0       35.4       +13.4
London          49.8       63.1       +13.3
Peterborough    30.9       43.4       +12.5
St-Catharines   23.2       35.3       +12.1
Mississauga     38.3       47.5       +9.2
York Region     12.0       20.1       +8.1
Kingston        25.4       32.5       +7.1
Windsor         26.2       30.5       +4.3
Burlington      9.6        12.7       +3.1
Oakville        13.9       16.0       +2.1
Hamilton        46.9       44.8       -2.1

I hope with this LRT, funded entirely by the province, the City of Hamilton finally start caring about transit again. After wasting all the gax tax money from higher levels of government the past decade, spending hundreds of millions to build freeways through their greenspace, I hope they will have a different attitude towards transit riders and stop starving HSR of funding. But looking at these stats, I think maybe that is too much to hope for.

 

[mdrejhon]

I'm not sure how long you've been in Hamilton, or how familiar you are with how city staff 'gather' public opinion (aka they direct the public towards their opinion -- look back to 1999 and the city logo competition).

So our Venn Diagrams do overlap a tiny bit after all!

Long enough to get a picture. (what many call the "Old Boys Club" mentality)
Stubborn enough to start early due diligence anyway.

This may not be the exact scenario, but one possible of many: I learned there are already people ready to remortgage their house for a share in a gondola (i.e. Gage-Mountain 500 meters). A whole gondola looks doable on just 10 house remortgages, a small group of local residential investors who are willing to pitch a remortgage in, to total up to capitalizing the gondola for a stake. This may bypass government funding and reduce opposition. The current trial ballon idea is within the 2020-2029 timeline a shovel-ready privately-studied gondola (far away from any competing transport corridors, e.g. A-Line, car accesses, etc, keeping gondola mostly insulated from public-funded competition for long enough to payoff gondola capital costs event ually).

I don't view gondolas in the same "transit" angle as LRT, in that gondolas are low-priced enough to be privately funded and run off both tourism & transit. If the city wants to build it themselves, then the city's further ahead than we thought. But I'd suspect we'd be in mutual agreement they're just studying for something too far out in the future. The gondola idea came to me later than the LRT, but it interests me immensely regardless whether it's private/public/combination funded. Realistically I see the private route occuring for the 1st Hamilton gondola, though.

Now say, circa 2021 or 2028 or 2029, after a healthily progressing HSR+LRT, a shovel-ready fully-privately-funded-studied gondola would be dangled as a carrot ("just sign and it happens in just 12 months" -- not that simple but the objective is to do as much work as we can, all the way to private studies, to the point of making as shovel-ready-as-possible) in front of the City for several consecutive administrations, until one bites. Obviously, all sorts of talk and negotiations would be needed with so many stakeholders, like NEC/HorizonUtilities/City/stakeholders/etc, but we already know. The gondola consultancy knows their way around more bureaucratic cities than Hamilton elsewhere in the world. Even longershots have happened elsewhere.

Several longshots in a row are finally happening (Cannon Cycle Track, SoBi, LRT funding, etc) and by 2025, the city may be more open to giving the go-ahead to a privately-funded gondola.

Attempting to snuff the gondola topic will do exactly the opposite -- I will continue to do rebuttals -- and no, driverless cars won't make gondolas obsolete [explanation], either (and even when they DO arrive, it will NOT make the specific gondola obsolete. People will still take many forms of transport available to them), and besides, the gondola corridor I am currently advocating, is far away from any kind of transport access (car access or LRT access) corridor anyway.

You may have heard from other people that I may also disagree with (too) along with you: I don't subscribe to other gondola advocates who think A-Line should be replaced by a gondola (you may have heard other people about this) -- But that does not automatically mean I pull back on behind-the-scenes gondola advocacy to prevent that from happening, as I really feel LRT accesses are absolutely esssential.

Any public anti-transit talk (anti-bus, anti-LRT, anti-gondola, etc) will catch my/our attention.

Since we moved permanently here two years ago, we are involved very actively in multiple initiatives. We love where we live so much, that if we ever won the $60M lottery, we are definitely staying put -- we're pretty firm here. My spouse being part of various groups including Barton, cycling, LRT, Sherman Hub, etc. and we have retired city planners and Hamilton municipal election candidates on our LRT advocacy team already, and we now do presentations to triple-digit attendance. Look at how longshot funding the Hamilton LRT was, and many people have never given up on that!

The momentum is building (steps forward, step back, step forward, etc) and we really, really, really want to prevent the LRT from being screwed up.

Me and Alain will be training at the Hamilton Community Foundation's Neighbourhood Leadership Institute, though some have remarked we're already graduates before we even started that...

Yes, Hamilton will be a difficult nut to crack, but, again, we're talking 2020-2029 ballpark, and talking shovel-start. This may be a 10-15 year behind-the-scenes slog and will pounce at any opportunity window. If HSR threats occur, that definitely will get prioritized.

So here's my fear;
"Hey Mountain Residents! Now, we only have XYZ Millions of dollars for better transit to get you home up the mountain. Would you prefer these sweet, cool, modern gondolas like a ski resort? Or these big, loud, poor-people buses?"

Legitimate fear. We WILL act quite aggressively against that.
HSR and LRT is more important.
I will adjust priorities accordingly, LRT/HSR disasters happen before then, and that would bump the gondola down the road, but there are ones setting in for the 20-year longhaul (myself included).

I'll let the topic quiet down until the next time I see any public gondola talk (inclusive of replies to me that disagree with gondola elements).

If we want to talk about gondolas, let's wait until all my previous points have been met. Then and only then would it be worth a discussion.

We may have opinions of where the different thresholds are... but fundamentally we agree it's too early to discuss in public.

However, any gondola opposition will have quick public response/action by gondola advocates (myself included) -- you've already figured out it's not possible to convince me otherwise, no matter how impossible/byzantine our city might be sometimes.

Let's get our sub-par transit system operating properly before these other 'wants'!

Agreed. If HSR worsens before 2019, that definitely bumps things out.
One of our LRT advocates wrote a college thesis paper on LRT+HSR integration.

Over the last 3-6 months we've rapidly expanded our involvement in civic matters. Several of us do attend a few City Council events (e.g. LRT sub-committee), as well as community events. Some pictures of our presentation to a 100+ audience. Both of us are involved in the Sherman Hub Community Meetings (Alain as Vice-Chair, myself as Co-Communications Coordinator).

My spouse's planning to do our 5-minute piece at the Feb 9 meeting due to the threat of Rapid Ready pullback threat which we are against (bus scalebacks).

All in all, over the last 6 months, we've grown our connections by more than an order of magnitude..

We have lots to learn but we learn fast, and WILL learn more and more....

 

[mdrejhon]

Ridership per capita, 2003-2013

Municipality    Riders2003 Riders2013 Change
Waterloo Region 29.3       50.5       +20.2
Brampton        22.0       35.4       +13.4
London          49.8       63.1       +13.3
St-Catharines   23.2       35.3       +12.1
Mississauga     38.3       47.5       +9.2
York Region     12.0       20.1       +8.1
Kingston        25.4       32.5       +7.1
Windsor         26.2       30.5       +4.3
Burlington      9.6        12.7       +3.1
Oakville        13.9       16.0       +2.1
Hamilton        46.9       44.8       -2.1

I hope with this LRT, funded entirely by the province, the City of Hamilton finally start caring about transit again. After wasting all the gax tax money from higher levels of government the past decade, spending hundreds of millions to build freeways through their greenspace, I hope they will have a different attitude towards transit riders and stop starving HSR of funding. But looking at these stats, I think maybe that is too much to hope for.

This is a legitimate worry -- we cannot let HSR cutbacks happen. They've happened far too often over the years. It was truly decimated after the 1991 recession (massive drops year-after-year) but today, there is no excuse for the threat of HSR cutbacks, given the last fare raise was supposed to help prevent that in the first place!

A starved or downgraded HSR will hurt LRT, and that's not acceptable. Members of our advocacy will/are already mobilizing on this. My spouse attends the HSR advocacy meetings and is very much involved in this matter as a determined resident.