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Toronto Street Widths

Everyone on here thinks neighbourhoods would be great if we could just control the roads/cars.

…Yes. This is, unironically, the key to good urban public space. And Toronto is getting it wrong, even in the most heavily design-reviewed and regulated new places. (Or so I think. Clearly others disagree.)

There are ~no streets being constructed anywhere in Toronto that are “narrow and European-like”, as Parkdalian put it. Instead Toronto streetscapes are being driven by old-school American transportation engineering, plus a specific idea of maxmizing sunlight on the public realm, to an extent that is unusual - if not unique - in the West.
 
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…Yes. This is, unironically, the key to good urban public space. And Toronto is getting it wrong, even in the most heavily design-reviewed and regulated new places. (Or so I think. Clearly others disagree.)

There are ~no streets being constructed anywhere in Toronto that are “narrow and European-like”, as Parkdalian put it. Instead Toronto streetscapes are being driven by old-school American transportation engineering, plus a specific idea of maxmizing sunlight on the public realm, to an extent that is unusual - if not unique - in the West.
For the past 12± years, we have had (Progressive) Conservatives as the mayor. Mostly more oriented towards the car, which got reflected on the designs for the Don Lands. Some transit, cycling, and pedestrian influences were made because of some councillor & ratepayer inputs, not only a little.
 
There are ~no streets being constructed anywhere in Toronto that are “narrow and European-like”, as Parkdalian put it. Instead Toronto streetscapes are being driven by old-school American transportation engineering, plus a specific idea of maxmizing sunlight on the public realm, to an extent that is unusual - if not unique - in the West.

This is such a curious take and I would argue, a misleading one.

Many European cities have extremely prescriptive zoning and entitlements and rigid height limits; as such there is no shortage of sunlight on the public realm.

To suggest, well, they don't regulate for sunlight this way in Paris.....err.....tell me about all the 40-storey residential towers in Paris please; 30? , 20?, anyone? That's right, that's pretty much non-existent. As is equally true in most European cities. There are pockets of exception, but even then, off-hand, I can't think of a single 40-storey residential tower anywhere in Europe {there's probably some that I'm unaware of.....)

But Toronto has a comparatively unique scenario in respect of impaired access to light vs Europe.

Its also important to add, many European cities are bereft of green, and tree canopy, and that's, in part why many experience inordinate death rates during heatwaves.

The Cities that's have more robust tree canopy by the way, tend to have wide open roads or clearances, along with short buildings.

Lets look: Paris:

1684774929262.png


4 travel lanes, 1 parking lane, total cross-section 33M

Comparing this, by the way to just one street over, which lacks trees:

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I certainly don't think of the second example as more walkable or pleasant than the first. I think of this as less safe, and frankly, ugly.

cross-section 8m (lots of on-street parking btw)

***

Off to Vienna next:

1684775256285.png


Nice, lush, greenery, but look at the size of this ROW!

The inner-portion (excluding the transit ROW) is ~25M, but the subway, which is open-trenched to the left of this image, plus addtional space you see on the right, brings the ROW to ~43M

Sure Vienna also has some wonderful pedestrian-only spaces and some very narrow roads, but we need to be careful but extolling there virtues w/o limit:

1684775476902.png


Does the above really induce the desire for a lovely stroll?

At least this street to which it connects has nice stone for a road surface, but its still fairly dark and completely devoid of greenery:

1684775577430.png


Yes, some of the narrow passages are pretty likable; but I still want something going on here to add some vibrance:

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But what about suburban Vienna you ask? Glad you did!


1684775832448.png


My goodness all that vertical density, and hold on, is that street parking on both sides of the road?

Yes, there are ultra-narrow 'streets' (really more like lanes) that run off this street, but note the heights, and the setbacks, and the absence of sidewalks....

1684775944409.png


How about a street through lowrise apartment blocks? :

1684776011923.png


How about outer-suburban Paris for a comparison?

1684776156398.png


Ok, maybe not every Paris streetscape is worth emulating, let me go several km to the south to see another one:

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Is this what you had in mind, Alex?

******

My point here really isn't to give Alex a hard time; its to point out that he often makes sweeping statements which really require detailed, practical comparisons to understand. Things in different places, are different for a reason.

Much of Europe is not built like you see in post-cards or at a new-urbanist seminars.

I support narrower roads, but we see clear examples of how to achieve those from Europe, with low building heights, and you still need some measure of width to support greenery, which really improves the walking experience immeasurably, particularly in areas that get really hot in summer or really cool in winter.
 
@interchange42 yes, this should be a new thread.

I won’t try to respond to @northern Light’s deluge, but I’ll ask the question again, esp to the professionals on here: is there a street in Toronto constructed since 2000 whose urban design you think is successful? How far back do we need to go to find one?
 
@interchange42 yes, this should be a new thread.

I won’t try to respond to @northern Light’s deluge, but I’ll ask the question again, esp to the professionals on here: is there a street in Toronto constructed since 2000 whose urban design you think is successful? How far back do we need to go to find one?
Reimagined rather than constructed... but Wellington Street west of Spadina has always been a personal fav and now gettin' better and better.

Bit too wide though. 🙃
 
…Yes. This is, unironically, the key to good urban public space. And Toronto is getting it wrong, even in the most heavily design-reviewed and regulated new places. (Or so I think. Clearly others disagree.)

To me, the biggest example of this is that they put a car street to the south of the buildings right on the the lake between Jarvis and Parliament. With parking!
 
I won’t try to respond to @northern Light’s deluge, but I’ll ask the question again, esp to the professionals on here: is there a street in Toronto constructed since 2000 whose urban design you think is successful? How far back do we need to go to find one?
I know you don't like it, and I'm not a professional, just a guy with a kid, but Front St east of Cherry does work for us. It's not extremely lively, but with the splash pad, patios, etc. we spend a lot of time there and like it a lot.
 
I don't think ROW width is so much the problem as the actual roadway. Wide ROW can be given a feeling of enclosure by leaving room for street trees (the kind that actually create a bit of a canopy). Wide roadways can make streets feel uninviting. A lot of it can be fixed by eliminating parking or at least making the parking clearly separate from the roadway. Even better if the parking can be put on a separate access frontage street that can double as a bike path to leave the roadway as a single lane in each direction.
 
Did I miss something? What is the context of this thread? The early posts refer to "these" roads and "this development"... were these posts spun off from a development thread and the context removed? If so, why?
 
Did I miss something? What is the context of this thread? The early posts refer to "these" roads and "this development"... were these posts spun off from a development thread and the context removed? If so, why?

The initial discussion took place in the Lower Don Lands thread.

It was considered to be a bit of a tangent and one perhaps worthy of its own thread, so the mods made that happen.
 
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@interchange42 yes, this should be a new thread.

I won’t try to respond to @northern Light’s deluge, but I’ll ask the question again, esp to the professionals on here: is there a street in Toronto constructed since 2000 whose urban design you think is successful? How far back do we need to go to find one?
I find this to be a vague and contentious question. What does "successful" mean? Any examples provided and any way success is described will be just be stated as being unsuccessful because it is a subjective aesthetic judgement that is determining what success is. Nothing is objectively measuring what success is. Which is fine, but I think it's better to say, "I don't like any streets constructed in Toronto since 2000" instead of the urban design is unsuccessful.

I also think that prescriptive aesthetic concerns - like street widths need to be a certain width to be comfortable or attractive - are not a great idea, and generally get dated as time passes. Aesthetics should be variable, responsive, flexible, allowing for different voices, allowing for change.

That being said, this thread title is hilarious.
 

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