Toronto St Lawrence Market North | 25.3m | 5s | City of Toronto | Rogers Stirk Harbour

Many places world wide have built over archeological sites and or encorpetated them into the structure why not here
 
PinkLucy said:
Yeah, that isn't how archaeology works.
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Course it isn't, but I hardly think there's anything here worth poring attention over.

The history is fairly clear-cut (any further discoveries will likely be increasingly miniscule in nature), and anything worth saving was lost when the old St Lawrence North was demolished.
 
jje1000 said:
Course it isn't, but I hardly think there's anything here worth poring attention over.

The history is fairly clear-cut (any further discoveries will likely be increasingly miniscule in nature), and anything worth saving was lost when the old St Lawrence North was demolished.
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They are NOT expecting to make any more archaeological discoveries - they are trying to find a way to remove, conserve and display some of the things they have already found. Read the GM Committee report referenced above.
 
Normally I'm all for historical preservation, but honestly I don't think there's anything worth salvaging- sorry, but I feel like the city is putting far too much effort into this and getting very little in return (even losing some value from the replacement building).

No interesting remaining architectural forms or artifacts of value. We aren't an ancient city nor even a particularly notable old one (sorry that goes to the old US colonial & Quebecois cities). Heck, this isn't even a particularly important site compared to others (i.e. First Parliament, the actual St Lawrence Market). Wow! So we found some forks and a bottle from J.J. McLaughlin- so what? Plenty of those already in the city museums and archives.

IMO bulldoze it asap and stop dallying around. If they're going to force the conservation of these """artifacts""" I sure do hope they raise the budget for this project.

But of course they won't- and this project will probably be one of those that RSHP chooses to remove their name from.
 
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jje1000 said:
Normally I'm all for historical preservation, but honestly I don't think there's anything worth salvaging- I feel like the city is putting far too much effort into this and getting very little in return (even losing some value from the replacement building).

No interesting remaining architectural forms or artifacts of value. We aren't an ancient city nor even a particularly notable old one (sorry that goes to the old US colonial & Quebecois cities).

Heck, this isn't even a particularly important site compared to others (i.e. First Parliament, the actual St Lawrence Market). Wow! So we found some forks and a bottle from J.J. McLaughlin- so what? Plenty of those already in the city museums and archives.

IMO bulldoze it asap and stop dallying around. If they're going to force the conservation of these """artifacts""" I sure do hope they raise the budget for this project.

But of course they won't- and this project will probably be one of those that RSHP chooses to remove their name from.
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I disagree with every thought expressed in that post, such that I don't even know where to start. Suffice it to say, cities actively ignorant of their history deserve what they get. I hope for more for Toronto.

(ETA: we aren't an ancient city. okay, I'll give him/her that.)
 
Skeezix said:
I disagree with every thought expressed in that post, such that I don't even know where to start. Suffice it to say, cities actively ignorant of their history deserve what they get. I hope for more for Toronto.
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Ignorant about some mundane aspect that is of little interest is par the course for most cities. What would be more tragic would be let his kerfuffle hold this project up with the end result being some sub-par building on the site that nobody would care to remember as part of their history in the future. We are pretty good at the latter - and in this city we have trouble even preserving what is worth preserving while spending hours and hours on what's left of basements and foundations. That is tragic.

AoD
 
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Skeezix said:
I disagree with every thought expressed in that post, such that I don't even know where to start. Suffice it to say, cities actively ignorant of their history deserve what they get. I hope for more for Toronto.

(ETA: we aren't an ancient city. okay, I'll give him/her that.)
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The problem is that this part of history is not particularly ill-defined or poorly-documented- there already is plenty to know about the period and the city throughout the 1830s onwards. IMO what keeps us ignorant about our history is an actual lack of comprehensive public presentation, interpretation and communication (hint hint City of Toronto museum), not preservation of increasingly miniscule elements of history (no, some forks & bottles in a display case won't illuminate anyone).

Sorry but it peeves me off that two years(!!!) have gone by and nothing has has been built, what was supposed to be a stunning project has been value-engineered to heck and back, and now all they have to show for this is a bottle, some drains and some utensils?

We're not dealing with Alexander's tomb here. This honestly feels like a pet project of a city bureaucrat.
 
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jje1000 said:
Sorry but it peeves me off that two years(!!!) have gone by and nothing has has been built, what was supposed to be a stunning project has been value-engineered to heck and back, and now all they have to show for this is a bottle, some drains and some utensils?
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Not even that - but that they are taking their sweet time trying to figure out how to display it as if there is no schedule for everything else. Like something only 5 people a day will care to read. In the meantime, there is no commitment for additional funding for the delay, while each day the building isn't finished inflict a lost opportunity cost to the city.

AoD
 
It's not clear to me at this point how indecision on the removed artifacts continues to impede progress on the new building. Are they changing elements of the design to incorporate part of the dig along with the artifacts?
 
Bogtrotter said:
It's not clear to me at this point how indecision on the removed artifacts continues to impede progress on the new building. Are they changing elements of the design to incorporate part of the dig along with the artifacts?
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From the article -
The dig went longer than expected but wrapped up earlier this year. Now, the artifacts have to be painstakingly removed and catalogued, according to city staff. But that won't happen until the city decides where — and how — to display them, McConnell said.
Until those artifacts are removed, construction of the new $90-million. five-story, glass and steel building cannot begin.
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If you can't decide what to do, you can't remove anything and by extension build anything (e.g. the garage)

AoD
 
Why not just remove and store them somewhere first , and decide on a final display location later? Is there a full list somewhere of the actual artifacts found, beyond a ginger ale bottle and a fork?
 
Bogtrotter said:
Why not just remove and store them somewhere first , and decide on a final display location later? Is there a full list somewhere of the actual artifacts found, beyond a ginger ale bottle and a fork?
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With luck they will be able to do it this summer - according the Gov Mgmt Committee report:

Current Status
The Bid Document Stage for the new SLMN Building has been completed, including value engineering to bring the design within budget in consultation with an independent third party cost consultant. Tender Call for the construction of the new building is
current ly underway.

On April 26, 2017 Council approved funds for the salvage of archaeological remains for future public interpretation within the new North Market redevelopment in accordance with the approved Heritage Interpretation Plan. City staff are now aggressively working to contract professional services to salvage some of the key structural archaeological elements. This work will be undertaken over
the spring and summer of 2017.

CONCLUSION
The construction tender call for the new North Market building will be extended to award through Council in September 2017 to allow for completion of the archaeological salvage work.

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2017/gm/bgrd/backgroundfile-103896.pdf

AoD
 
Why not just give up on parking on this site and preserve the remains as-is on site? That would surely help with the budget.
 
I didn't realize they are removing and preserving actual wall structures and drainage etc. Yes it would be interesting if they could keep some of it intact onsite- something along the lines of the pit or crypt at Pointe-a-Calliere in Montreal.
 
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