Toronto St. Clair West Transit Improvements | ?m | ?s | TTC

[Jaye101]

^^ You don't need glasses. The area has more new businesses than almost any other area in the entire city. Think about the new sleek restaurants like Room Service (west of Glenholme), and Sofra Grill (at Dufferin), Agio (at Lansdowne). These are quality independant businesses that have literally moved the garbage out of the neighbourhood. Someone is blind but it definetely isn't you. I also live directly on the ROW.

I really need to get out with a camera to show this renaissance of this avenue as this is the only picture online of a new restaurant that I have found.

The right of way hasn't been planned well from day one, and it hasn't been executed properly from the narrow sidewalks and the legnthy construction to the insane (this is an understatement) traffic. I've seen restaurants in my neighbourhood go from all day operation to weekend only, this is how bad it got at its worst. But now that the construction is wrapping up and the storefront improvement project has significantly improved the aestetics of the area... A complete change of the neighbourhood for the better has already come.

Every single street corner in Corso Italia has decorated X-mas trees and there are speakers mounted on the sidewalk poles playing Christmas carols straight from Dufferin to Earlscourt Park. It really is something different, there is no doubt St. Clair is an avenue to invest in. Period.

 

[LowerBay]

+1
Streetcars worked in the 70s, lets dropship 'em everywhere, even through Morningside Park! Scientifically proven commuter travelling patterns be damned! Let's shut down several kilometres of a vibrant commercial street for several years, forcing many businesses to close up shop, only to come back with worsening quality of service!

I was around in the 60s and 70s, and streetcars didn't work, even back then. Frankly, I never understood their appeal. All the kids wanted to ride the subway, and streetcars were just buses with steel wheels.

I remember when the Bloor-Danforth subway opened -- all these foamers showed up from all over the United States the week before taking pictures ... not of the new subway line (which was state of the art back then), but of the Bloor streetcar. It was very strange.

 

[adma]

I was around in the 60s and 70s, and streetcars didn't work, even back then. Frankly, I never understood their appeal. All the kids wanted to ride the subway, and streetcars were just buses with steel wheels.

Yeah, and said kids probably also didn't understand the appeal of those old crock buildings under demolition downtown, either...

 

[taal]

^^ You don't need glasses. The area has more new businesses than almost any other area in the entire city. Think about the new sleek restaurants like Room Service (west of Glenholme), and Sofra Grill (at Dufferin), Agio (at Lansdowne). These are quality independant businesses that have literally moved the garbage out of the neighbourhood. Someone is blind but it definetely isn't you. I also live directly on the ROW.

I really need to get out with a camera to show this renaissance of this avenue as this is the only picture online of a new restaurant that I have found.

The right of way hasn't been planned well from day one, and it hasn't been executed properly from the narrow sidewalks and the legnthy construction to the insane (this is an understatement) traffic. I've seen restaurants in my neighbourhood go from all day operation to weekend only, this is how bad it got at its worst. But now that the construction is wrapping up and the storefront improvement project has significantly improved the aestetics of the area... A complete change of the neighbourhood for the better has already come.

Every single street corner in Corso Italia has decorated X-mas trees and there are speakers mounted on the sidewalk poles playing Christmas carols straight from Dufferin to Earlscourt Park. It really is something different, there is no doubt St. Clair is an avenue to invest in. Period.

Hey Jaye you might be right, but you must still admit there are a ton of vacancies on St. Clair now ... I agree, a lot of these former places were seedy or laundry joints. So you predict, slowly, but surely these places will be filled with more 'interesting' retail?

 

[Asterix]

Steve's post is just damage control. The line looks like shit, and it's not a telephoto effect. His pics look better because the distance is out of focus. A human eye must have noticed all those zig zags before a camera was focused on it.

Are you seriously saying that the level of 'squiggliness' in the telephoto shots of the section east of Bathurst where the streetcar seems to run fine, is not comparable to the level of 'squiggliness' in the telephoto shots of the section west of Bathurst?

How many of those zig zags (in either the east or west sections) were not due to a transition between centre and side poles or to deal with left turn lanes or near/far side platform positionings?

There's a difference between being against light rail in general, and being against light rail in Toronto. The TTC has a very poor track record with light rail, and for this reason, I don't support its expansion in Toronto.

While I won't attempt to defend the implementation of St Clair W (in terms of pole positioning, traffic disruptions, etc., some of which were due to poor coordination of non-TTC utilities or lawsuits by neighbourhood groups), what would your suggestion be for transit on major arteries?

There is a limit to how many buses you can throw on the street and the resulting scheduling/reliability is just going to go to crap. Unless you have near-bottomless pockets to build subways all over the place, you need to have something that can handle more passengers than buses. Your non-LRT solution would be...?

because there definitely will be a backlash against the system once it's built.

You are so sure of this, not only for St Clair W, but for lines whose construction hasn't even started? Please remember that there is a difference between the agonies that are endured DURING construction (especially a poorly implemented one) and the functioning of the completed system.

I get the impression that not only do you think it impossible for anyone, especially the TTC or City to learn from one project to apply to future projects, but that the well-documented transit theory that shows how many more passengers LRT can move compared to buses is bunk as well.

 

[Justin10000]

The St.Clair ROW has provided some valuable learning lessons for the TTC and the city on how to proceed with the future ROWs regarding TC in regards to implementation.

I personally think that in the end though that St.Clair hasn't been decimated as some are reporting and life will go on. Walking along my section of St.Clair I just don't see the devastation and empty stores people are screaming are a reality.

Maybe I need glasses.

The area looks just fine. My main complaint is poles. It makes the street look cluttered, but it's no where as bad as some members claim it to be.

This Anti-LRT bias have reached a Rush Limbaugh frenzy, with the asinine assumptions, and claims.

 

[Jaye101]

Hey Jaye you might be right, but you must still admit there are a ton of vacancies on St. Clair now ... I agree, a lot of these former places were seedy or laundry joints. So you predict, slowly, but surely these places will be filled with more 'interesting' retail?

Definitely, it's only a matter of time. Yes there is a lot of vacant store windows, there is three in a row just west of Oakwood, but the investment in the area is really growing and once the ROW begins operation it will happen more rapidly. There are a lot of quality businesses opening up on St. Clair.

 

[Edward Skira]

How many of those vacant stores are due to the ROW construction? There's plenty of vacant stores in my area and there's no ROW being built. Its called the recession.

 

[rbt]

How many of those vacant stores are due to the ROW construction? There's plenty of vacant stores in my area and there's no ROW being built. Its called the recession.

How many are due to gentrification? Have lease rates gone up over the last few years since construction started?

Businesses are going under on Queen West too as lease rates are doubling/tripling and the lower margin stores cannot keep up.

Aside from this possibility there is also the fact that most startups don't survive very long. How many went out of business in the 5 years prior to the ROW construction? What was the vacancy rate then?

 

[spaced]

I've seen a positive difference on St. Clair's retail too. It's quite perplexing. The only thing I can think of is it must be in anticipation of the ROW being completed. I know that after installing SC's in Portland the property values of adjacent properties quadrupled.
It's bitter sweet to think that some of the SOS'ers will reap the benefits too. Even while they are still bellyaching about seeing a 'sea of concrete' while they were mostly fighting for more on-street parking. They will be proved wrong and still come out rich--wtf?!? haha.

Drum: I hope you don't get down on your documentation being used for evil. You're contribution to this city and it should be commended.

 

[rbt]

It bitter sweet to think that some of the SOS'ers will reap the benifits too.

Many of the SOS'ers were business owners with leases to landlords. The worst case scenario for them is that property values increase rapidly and significantly.

Immediate impact will be property taxes and a longer term impact will be when their lease comes up for renewal.

 

[Jaye101]

How many are due to gentrification? Have lease rates gone up over the last few years since construction started?

Businesses are going under on Queen West too as lease rates are doubling/tripling and the lower margin stores cannot keep up.

Aside from this possibility there is also the fact that most startups don't survive very long. How many went out of business in the 5 years prior to the ROW construction? What was the vacancy rate then?

I don't believe leases have gone up significantly at all. It wouldn't make much sense since businesses have been suffering throughout the area. I guess it can be called gentrification in a way, because what's happening is that the number of consumers on St. Clair has dropped so low that lower quality businesses have been forced to shut down, once that happens new businesses see the avenue as an investment and they open up in anticipation of the increased traffic.

 

[Jonny5]

How many of those vacant stores are due to the ROW construction? There's plenty of vacant stores in my area and there's no ROW being built. Its called the recession.

Actually some have been vacant from before the recession!

I think the retail situation on St. Clair, particularly from Wychwood to Oakwood, mirrors Parliament quite a bit. Both neighbourhoods have long established middle to upper middle class residents that were significantly underserved by their local main street. Both are now going through the same retail gentrification.

 

[W. K. Lis]

To me, a sign that an area is going downhill are the pay day loan shops and dollar stores. Not that many on St. Clair.

 

[Glen]

Besides new restaurants, what new businesses have come to St. Clair? Recall, that restaurants have a very high failure rate. Add to that there may be a limit on how many the area can support.