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Toronto St. Clair West Transit Improvements | ?m | ?s | TTC

As already posted, fire trucks come in many sizes. It's good to hear of the new Volvo trucks. Most calls seem to be for medical emergencies, it seems to me. Anyone here knowledgeable as to why they send fire trucks out to assist someone who has collapsed/fallen ill/with no fire to be seen anywhere??

There are more fire department stations in the city than EMS stations. They typically have a response time that is three or four minutes better than the EMS. They also have much of the same equipment for assisting and stabilizing people at the scene. They of course are not equipped to transport or care for people in extreme distress and I don't think they are authorized to administer any drugs.
 
The only valid point is that the centre poles are a problem. Buses can not easily use the ROW either in the event of a streetcar outage, except in areas immediately around St. Clair West Station. Spadina still looks good with the span wires.

I agree that the centre poles are a real problem. When replacement buses were running in the heavily backed-up traffic next to the completed Phase I it became very clear that the ROW should have been designed to accommodate buses (and wide fire trucks). Our streetcars are at the end of their lives and the new ones won’t be here for some time so we may really need to run buses on St. Clair. This can’t be done very efficiently on the remaining road space next to the ROW.

Along Phase I the light standards are almost aligned with the centre poles in many stretches. If the light standards were strong enough to support spanning wires there could have been 1/3 fewer poles with the centre ones gone.

I think the City should at least look at redesigning Phase IV since its construction is way off in the future. Even Phase III could be fixed now (the SOS website suggests the contract was going out to tender around June 18). Maybe Phase I and II could have there centre poles replaced with spanning wires?

During the remaining years of construction and whenever there is a problem with the streetcars, it would sure be nice to have the buses moving efficiently along the ROW.
 
Narrow fire trucks are needed in the older parts of the city because of the laneways, one way streets, and congestion. In addition, some of the townhouses in the newer parts of the city also have very narrow streets, so they will have need of narrow fire trucks as well. Seems moot to me.
 
As much I support centre poles, TTC and City method has been wrong.

I said at TTC meeting yesterday for the Sheppard LRT approval that show up without notice, that the poles be put on one side of the ROW like it is done at the platforms.

Road Pole Track Track Road

Road --------------
road '
road '
road '
road '
road '
+++++++ ==== ==== +++++++++

The big issue is, traffic refusing to reduce the width of the lanes. Traffic agreed to reduce the width of the lanes for Cherry St and was approved by council, but the engineer for the project refused to reduce the lanes. He going against his boss direction as well city council.

SOS should get their facts correct as to why the project is taking so long as they only approved various items that have long lead time to get made not to long ago.
 
Narrow fire trucks are needed in the older parts of the city because of the laneways, one way streets, and congestion. In addition, some of the townhouses in the newer parts of the city also have very narrow streets, so they will have need of narrow fire trucks as well. Seems moot to me.

Correct. Poor form for the TFD to complain when they buy SUV trucks. Imagine a fire in Kensington market, or for that matter, any of those streets bordering Spadina Chinatown.
 
Judging by this video,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXMiHP0AngQ

it sure negates the argument by city councillor Cesar Palacio to be wrong!

That is at Avenue road of all things and that is supposed to be the pinch point problem for TTC buses of all things.

TTC drivers have no leg to stand on to say they cannot drive buses along the ROW in this area based on this video.

There are drivers who will have white knuckles even if the ROW is 2 feet wider.

Councillor Cesar Palacio has opposed the ROW from day one and moreso, since he will loose a huge section of sidewalk in front of this ridding office. Even with the cut, he will still have more sidewalk than most places along St Clair in the first place.

He has been beating the drums in other wards over the last few years and I have seen him actions at these other ward meetings on this issue.
 
From the Star:

Tweaks will fix St. Clair fire truck access: TTC
Jun 20, 2008 01:45 PM
Tess Kalinowski
Staff Reporter
The TTC is proposing some minor fixes to the street level and curb height on the St. Clair streetcar right-of-way to address the fire department's concerns about the street being unsafe for its trucks.
But the controversial streetcar lane that runs up the centre of the road won't be redesigned, said TTC chief general manager Gary Webster.

He walked along St. Clair this morning with Toronto fire chief Bill Stewart this morning to try and tamp down the controversy around a report released this week suggesting the right-of-way was unsafe for fire trucks and therefore put area residents at risk.

The curbs and the centre poles that power the streetcars pose a hazard to the trucks if they mount the right-of-way to circumvent traffic, according to a report by the fire department.

"The most important thing to do today is reassure everybody that what was built is fine. There are some minor adjustments that we'll sort out," said Webster, adding that there's still time to address fire access concerns before the TTC moves ahead and builds seven Transit City streetcar lines across Toronto.

"We've said right along St. Clair was safe," said Stewart. "We respond in the city of Toronto as we do every day. In fairness that report was written in April, there's alterations that are going to occur with TTC and we'll make a plan work for the citizens of the city of Toronto. The issue for us is we'll operate on the curb as we have and will continue to do so. There's traffic congestion in the city, there's densification and there are more vehicles and we have to be able to accomodate moving in the city."

But Margaret Smith, a St. Clair resident who has fought for years against the streetcar line, called the city's handling of emergency experts' and residents' concerns "a scandal."

"This never would have happened if they'd listened to folks and said we're going to work this out. But they are so arrogant to rush forward," she said.

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/446835
_________________________________________________________________

Hmm, given how "unsafe" St. Clair has become, perhaps Margaret Smith and the rest of the SOS gang should move and leave "risky" urban living for those who can take it?

AoD
 
Actually, the fire truck did not look to be going all that fast, if there where no centre poles then the truck would be able to go down the middle and not have to worry about hitting either the vehicles on the side or the poles.

I remember that the Fire Service was complaining about the centre poles on St Clair before construction started, so the argument that they are too late is not valid. The TTC had already made up their minds and was not willing to concider anyones input.

fire trucks can still use the ROW, but when mere seconds can mean the difference between life and death, they need to make it as fire service frendly as possible.

Not to mention that busses cant use it either
 
Actually, the fire truck did not look to be going all that fast, if there where no centre poles then the truck would be able to go down the middle and not have to worry about hitting either the vehicles on the side or the poles.
Yeah, I noticed that too. That was one slow moving fire truck. Honestly, I think the speed the truck was going at probably negated any time savings created by the lack of traffic.
 
Pinch Points

Judging by this video,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXMiHP0AngQ

it sure negates the argument by city councillor Cesar Palacio to be wrong!
That is at Avenue road of all things and that is supposed to be the pinch point problem for TTC buses of all things.
Notice how the fire truck pulls into the middle of the ROW when it clears the last centre pole. Lucky there was no streetcar at the platform.

Am I allowed to attach this photo from yesterday's Toronto Star?

I would say every pair of stops is a bit of a pinch point. Check out the jogs that bring the tracks closer together at the stops (exagerated by a long lens in the attached photo).

I was on a westbound 512 bus today which stopped in the intersection at Vaughan to allow oncoming buses to clear the narrow channel between the westbound stop and the raised curb beside the east to north left turn lane. Turns out our right front tire was already rolling up the ramp onto the platform. When the eastbound buses cleared, our driver dropped his wheel back down and pulled up to the stop. Is there more clearance at Bathurst?
 

Attachments

  • Star - St. Clair.jpg
    Star - St. Clair.jpg
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7 minute trip from St Clair West St to Yonge

You will notice the streetcar is not traveling fast compare to traffic.

The raise section is too high and not wide enough for buses let alone fire trucks to travel at a good speed. Reason is the city engineers refused to reduce the road lanes width as well extra turning lanes. That curb at intersection could be narrow as well lower.

The track work is kinky in many places.

I was not impress what was taking place during the EA stage and what we got now reinforce that view.

A fire official did state his concerns at an EA meeting as well in written form Think who is station up there as a chief for a station.

Platforms are narrow due no lane width reduction.

The poles could be smaller in sizes as well space further apart.

I support the centre poles, but not like this design.

Think How much money could be save by going with a thiner raise section.

For the record, I saw a fire truck on Bloor a few weeks ago and he was "Flying" compare to other ones we normally see and over the speed limit.
 
The ROW was built so the fire trucks and buses could use it in an emergency, but if they had gone with a narrow ROW just for the streetcars, the roadway would have been wider. Going with a wider ROW to accommodate the fire trucks and buses resulted in a narrower roadway.
 

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