News   Mar 18, 2024
 677     0 
News   Mar 18, 2024
 2.4K     4 
News   Mar 18, 2024
 755     0 

Toronto, Capital of North America?

Maybe our companies don't have enough of a stake in this country to keep the jobs here? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Caterpillar just move their operations from London to a state that is fairly anti-union? I would agree that the issue isn't exactly that our labour is too expensive, but rather than because they can get it cheaper elsewhere they will in order to turn a bigger profit for shareholders. Again, I'm just guessing.

I think you are completely correct. Caterpillar, or GM etc are for profit companies and will always find places where they can maximize profits. With strong Canadian dollar, we will continue to see that trend. We may ask ourselves, what should keep Caterpillar in Canada? Caterpillar is not in the business of contributing to Canada's economy or jobs, it is here to make money. If it can make money elsewhere, of course it will leave.

Canada's dependence on the US economy is so sad yet many don't seem to realize until today. Canada's small market is almost insignificant to American companies, and Canada is losing the cost advantage these years as well. Americans will not hesitate for a second to abandon Canada if there is a better place to be, let's not kid ourselves. Between two countries, there is no permanent friendship. All this "buy-American" movement and Keystone project already showed that the US doesn't respect Canada the way we think they do, and they can turn protectionist instantly as long as there is such a need, despite all the preaches it did to other countries. Canadians are essentially on our own.

It is not about national pride. It is about survival. Canada is not such a small country as many seem to underestimate itself to be. It is still one of the world's top 10 economy and it can be a lot self-sufficient if it wants to be. Plus, there is the whole world outside North America. I don't see the point of tying Canada's fate firmly with America's.
 
Well said, kkgg7. Something too few seem to realise is that the first people we should be blaming is ourselves. Thanks for pointing out the trade surplus that Germany and Japan have with China. German factory workers make no less money than Canadian ones and I'm going to venture a guess that the case is the same in Japan. So, clearly, the problem isn't the wages being paid to workers here, which is a common bullshit argument used by those decrying the pay of the working classes. GM should leave the country as far as I'm concerned, for example. Hasn't insanity been described as doing the same thing over and over again whilst expecting a different result?

Toronto needs to become a stronger financial centre, first and foremost. Forget top ten bollocks...I'm talking top 5 in the world. Poach those losing their jobs in London and New York. Bring in companies leaving England and the US because of government incompetence.
Toronto needs to become a haven for mining companies which is something we have a strong base to build on. Calgary can keep their oil companies and related outward expansion.
If we are to be exporters of manufactured goods, these need to be something truly innovative that people want. Quality goods. GM cars this ain't. (Yes, I have a hate-on for GM).

We're very lucky with what we have and I have a lot of hope for the future (I'm 27) but a lot of the old thinking (I'm 27) needs to go. Our reliance on the US economy is not only worrying, scary as hell, lazy, complacent, and just plain idiotic; it's right suicidal. Let's start by diversifying our export base. Move on from there to incubating innovation and see where that gets us.

PS: to answer the thread title question: Toronto is already the capital of North America to me. I'm of a mind that Ontario is the best country in the world. :p

I am glad a young person as yourself can think this way. This is what Canada's future needs.

I particularly agree with your suggestion regarding recruiting those who lost jobs in New York and London. I am sure many will be glad to work and live in Toronto. Canada definitely should take advantage of its energy and resources - not just to sell to the US, sell to the world, to wherever demand is.

The US is buy a lot of oil and gas from Canada now, but here is something scary and not many know - it doesn't have to. US has the world's largest gas and oil reserve and can be fully sufficient if it chooses to, it just didn't. Shale gas production bloomed in the US in the past years, which is why natural gas price plunged like it never did. the US may well likely become a natural gas exporter. It didn't produce a lot of oil because it didn't have to, but it definitely has the capacity. All that being said, if someday the US government decides to be more self-sufficient (it is doing so), it WILL reduce import from Canada abruptly. Without the proper infrastructure and buyers in place, Canada's economy will be in deep trouble immediately - just like what the financial crisis which happened on Wall Street has crippled Canadian economy as well.

Harper is doing all the right things now, though many don't like him, but time will prove what he is doing now is all for Canada's best interest and will do good in the long run. In 2012, especially after the crisis, decoupling from the US economy and becoming a more independent and diversified economy is the only way to take care of ourselves.
 
Even if the US starts to supply itself with oil so as to be self-sufficient (and that's a big if), Canada can still sell oil abroad - such as in Asia - where there still is a growing demand. Oddly enough, there is even a possible market in Quebec and eastern Canada, where oil is imported from destinations such as the North Sea and Africa.

Let's face it, Canada is not a major manufacturing nation, and the manufacturing that the country possesses is either being diminished or specialized. Should RIM vanish, we really won't have a large-scale high tech manufacturer in the country. We still rely heavily on natural resources and agriculture. This is particularly so for the Western provinces. Alberta would be nothing like it is today without oil and gas.
 
While i think Toronto will be in good shape now and in the future i don't think it will be the number one city in north america will it be the top 5 no question my really concern is the areas around Toronto the likes of Hamilton even Waterloo.
 
I particularly agree with your suggestion regarding recruiting those who lost jobs in New York and London.

We are not in a position to be recruiting. The financial sector cut 5% of the workforce last year. Unemployment is rising. We are not hiring anyone from New York unless we are displacing people here.

I am sure many will be glad to work and live in Toronto. Canada definitely should take advantage of its energy and resources - not just to sell to the US, sell to the world, to wherever demand is.

Altering supply lines and infrastructure will require decades of investment and negotiation. Selling our natural resources is bad policy to begin with. That's third world thinking. We should be improving them here and then exporting finished goods.

The US is buy a lot of oil and gas from Canada now, but here is something scary and not many know - it doesn't have to. US has the world's largest gas and oil reserve and can be fully sufficient if it chooses to, it just didn't. Shale gas production bloomed in the US in the past years, which is why natural gas price plunged like it never did. the US may well likely become a natural gas exporter. It didn't produce a lot of oil because it didn't have to, but it definitely has the capacity. All that being said, if someday the US government decides to be more self-sufficient (it is doing so), it WILL reduce import from Canada abruptly. Without the proper infrastructure and buyers in place, Canada's economy will be in deep trouble immediately - just like what the financial crisis which happened on Wall Street has crippled Canadian economy as well. Harper is doing all the right things now, though many don't like him, but time will prove what he is doing now is all for Canada's best interest and will do good in the long run. In 2012, especially after the crisis, decoupling from the US economy and becoming a more independent and diversified economy is the only way to take care of ourselves.

This is ridiculous. Canada has not been relying on the generosity of the US, it has been exploiting it as a resource, really the best resource available to us. We focused on the US because Asia was an irrelevant market until very recent times and Eurpoe had all it needed. It's not scary or new information the US has the ability to become more self-sufficient (they absolutely cannot become totally self-sufficient anymore). It's actually common knowledge that the Canadian energy industry has dealt with for a century by offering product that makes US investment in it's own supplies not worth the cost. This has slowly changed over time, but very slowly.

First, reserves are not sitting in a warehouse, they are in the ground, in some cases, extremely deep in the ground under hundreds of feet of water and are very costly to extract. It's only at extreme prices that these become worth extracting. Prices so extreme they would collapse the world economy. This has already happened several times.

Second, the US can not just "abruptly" say they are cutting off exports from Canada as they have very poor internal energy distribution infrastructure. Loook how many millions of homes are still heated by costly oil in the US north-east while gas is at record lows. They can't switch as they have no supply lines. The US liquifies gas and ships it overseas because they have no ability to sell it to their own people. This will take decades to change. Also, gas has gone through massive price fluctuations many times in my short life. Investment has fallen off a cliff since 2008 and the price will go back up if there is not another world economic slowdown.

Third, Look how the north-east power grid is wholly dependant on power exports from Canada. The north-east grid doesn't even have a connection to the grid in the southern US.

Sure diversifying our supply lines is great, but the US is not turning the pipelines off anytime soon. Also, you talk as though the rest of the world has no alternative for energy but Canada. That's completely opposite to reality. China has alraedy massively invested in Africa to secure oil and gas. Central Asia has far more reserves than the US and Russia is on their doorstep. They don't really need us.

And Harper? He fully supported the Keystone XL pipeline to the US. If he is making all the right moves, that flies in the face of everything else you said. Really though he is just supporting whatever he is told to support by Syncrude when they send him a donation cheque. You are using rhetoric to manufacture a crisis. There isn't one. Diversifying is a good goal, but it will take decades and we can't ignore the world's largest market on our doorstep in the interim.
 
Last edited:
I don't agree with this "labour costs are high" arguments. To me, it is more like looking for excuse, or worse, whining.

Is labour cost high in Germany? In Japan? Did that prevent them from being the largest exporters of the world?

Both those nations have been enormously industrious, no question, but they've also received support since the second world war, no? Japan in particular has been notorious for unfair trade practices and protectionist policies.


Canada's manufacturing export is in trouble because it lacks a competitive advantage. I am sick of people complain about labour being so cheap in China or India so they took our jobs, as if it is all others' fault. .

You make some valid points kkgg7. Canada does lack aggressiveness, innovation and a competitive spirit. We're always content with a bronze star for effort, rather than striving for the big prize... That said, I don't think that this negates the issues surrounding uneven trade policies. These are all pieces of the same puzzle.
 
Both those nations have been enormously industrious, no question, but they've also received support since the second world war, no? Japan in particular has been notorious for unfair trade practices and protectionist policies.




You make some valid points kkgg7. Canada does lack aggressiveness, innovation and a competitive spirit. We're always content with a bronze star for effort, rather than striving for the big prize... That said, I don't think that this negates the issues surrounding uneven trade policies. These are all pieces of the same puzzle.

We are because in Canada we are not told to win, we are told to do our best and be fair and everyone plays.
 
To be fair, and if we're looking at the whole picture here, we do have to acknowledge that so many of Canada's brightest, most competitive and most innovative end up leaving Canada for more lucrative markets in the States and abroad. It's not just a brain drain, but a talent drain too!
 
I'm VERY glad it's been pointed out: we need to do more with our resources than just ship them out raw, only to have them shipped back when refined.
We do this with more than just oil.
Canada is the world's largest source of zinc. Name one zinc refinery in Canada. This is just one example that I deal with through my line of work.

We need to refine what we extract and then export it abroad.

As for the Conservatives.....they're a bit all over the place. I mean, economically, they have some decent ideas but even there they're a bit retarded sometimes. Ie: Keystone XL, not automatically installing a hypothetical single-desk market regulator in Toronto, lowering the GST, and on.
I won't mention some of their neanderthalic social policies, because it's almost irrelevant to this discussion....just had to qualify my support of some of what they're trying to do so no one actually believes I like them in any way. :p
 
To be fair, and if we're looking at the whole picture here, we do have to acknowledge that so many of Canada's brightest, most competitive and most innovative end up leaving Canada for more lucrative markets in the States and abroad. It's not just a brain drain, but a talent drain too!

It's ok...we steal all of Africa's best doctors. Tit for tat....with Conservatives in power in Ottawa, this seems legit. :p

Seriously though, I don't know how true this is anymore. I personally know a few top professionals who have come here from abroad (and decided to stay for good) and know not a single one who has left the country.

You have any stats to back this up?
 
I don't think Toronto will surpass New York or even Chicago any time soon. I've been to both NYC and Chicago several times, and they are huge cosmopolitan cities with fine architecture and it's evident that there's a lot of money there. It looks like Chicago is more affordable than Toronto housing-wise as well.
 
I think Toronto is doing just fine. I also think Toronto is going to defy most benchmarks. It is easily the most multicultural city in the world. Its got a pretty robust economy. Its got access to fresh water, its own food supply, its even got its own wine region. It is also quickly becoming the largest medical research centre in the world. For whatever company leaves Toronto to go elsewhere I am sure a few more get larger. Job creation is doing pretty good and the aging population will create more jobs through attrition. I think the largest thing Toronto has going for it is the scope possessed by the people who live here who arrived from distant shores.

Toronto has GLOBAL scope where other cities can barely see past their own backyard fence... and that is a key differentiation when measuring the mark of a true great city of the future.
 
Seriously though, I don't know how true this is anymore. I personally know a few top professionals who have come here from abroad (and decided to stay for good) and know not a single one who has left the country.

You have any stats to back this up?

To be honest, I don't... I was sort of taking a leap :)

Maybe it's more so in the arts and professional sports where the income differential can be enormous? I do agree it may be less so in other fields because people may opt for better Canadian lifestyle over larger salaries?
 
Well sports and the arts aside, I think Toronto has a good ratio of income to cost of living as far as higher-paid professionals are concerned....at least from what I can tell through my work (high-end custom residential home construction).

Speaking of which, the number of people building custom homes costing 1+ million to build (which is mostly what I work on) is just increasing and increasing in Toronto. It actually boggles my mind sometimes....and the homeowners are getting younger and younger. Gauging by that metric, however anecdotal it may be, I'd say Toronto is in a very good spot right now. The recession of 2008-09? For me in custom residential? Didn't happen. Not for a month. (For which I am grateful!)

PS: I don't even know if it was 2008-09 in spite of the fact that I read a lot of financial and economic newsmagazines...that's just how little I was affected by it. In fact, that's around the time I really started travelling, had the most money in the bank, and wanted to buy a house (I still rent).
 
Last edited:

Back
Top