The Great PC/Mac Debate (Embarrassing Revelations for Windows Vista)

[digi]

I bought a PC because I couldn't reconcile spending an extra $900 for a MacBook Pro that has the same specs as my ASUS.

You can also develop hardware for the PC, without spending a fortune.

 

[MetroMan]

This is pathetic, 22 pages and all you can do is jump on someone because the mac uses different shortcut keys.
I asked you many questions back in the beginning...you, of course, couldn't or wouldn't answer them.
You're the only one in this thread to make personal attacks, which truely reveals your personality.

Calling somebody out on a blatant misconception is not personal, nor are they attacks. I'm not jumping on anybody regarding the Mac's use of different shortcut keys. I'm calling them out on the common misconceptions people have with anything that isn't Windows.

What questions did I miss? Ask them again.

 

[syn]

You're avoiding the fact here: the case in point is that Hipster Duck did not know even the most basic shortcuts. If he knew, he would have applied them to Office and wouldn't think that Mac doesn't use shortcuts.

That isn't what he said at all.

I'm aware of all the shortcuts available in Excel and Word. I learned to use them first on a PC. It's "obvious" to you that I've never used them before.... why? Because I'm focusing on the basic shortcuts that anybody who's used an OS will know? I'm sticking to the point. You're running around trying to find a reason to prove me wrong, despite all the logic pointing to the contrary.

No, because it should be pretty obvious that he may not be talking about the basic shortcuts. You're just assuming he is.

If you've ever used Excel on both platforms then you wouldn't have any difficulty understanding what I'm trying to say.

This is turning into a game of logic. I didn't think you'd take this long to put logical elements together:

1- Shortcuts in OSX use ⌘
2- Even the most basic shortcuts in OSX are identical to their Windows counterparts
3- A person using OSX for more than a few hours will discover that ⌘ replaces CTRL as a modifier key. They're all over the menus.
4- Using Word or Excel for Mac and claiming that it doesn't use shortcuts means that you don't know the most basic system shortcuts
5- Not knowing ⌘P, ⌘C or ⌘N for example – some of most basic shortcuts – means you haven't used a Mac for any length of time.

Now Syn, you're quite stubborn and proud. I don't see you admitting it, but if I wrote a logical explanation of how the sky is blue, I wouldn't see you admitting it either.

I'm not referring to "the most basic shortcuts".

The entire problem with your logic is that it's being applied to a statement that was never made. You've chosen to interpret HDs comment as him stating there are no shortcuts on the Mac at all. It's quite obvious that he was probably referring to Excel and Word, the former of which I know for a fact uses different shortcuts than the PC version for program specific tasks.

It's not really difficult to see that's what he could've been referring to.

Now that he's confirmed what I've been saying the entire time maybe you'll catch on.

 

[MetroMan]

Redmond, start your photocopiers...

With my name flying around, I feel I need to interject. I know the basic shortcut keys for Macs, but I have more trouble with things such as transposing, or pasting in a special format.

Thanks for your input Hipster Duck. All the while, that claim is much different than your initial assertion that a PC has an "unarguable advantage" over a Mac because it can use shortcuts in Word and Excel.

Nonetheless, in keeping with the spirit of this thread, here's some news on Windows next release:

Microsoft to unveil test version of Windows 7

OS ANGELES, California (AP) -- The next version of Microsoft Windows, the software that defines the computing experience for most people, will nag users much less than its much-maligned predecessor, Vista. PC users will be able to test the new edition early next year.

Microsoft promises its Windows 7 operating system will be an improvement on the much-maligned Windows Vista.

The world's largest software maker also is making Word, Excel and other key elements of Office -- its flagship "productivity" programs -- able to run in a Web browser. The move is meant to help confront rivals such as Google Inc. that offer free word processing and spreadsheet programs online, threatening one of Microsoft Corp.'s most precious profit centers.

The Windows and Office news came Tuesday at a Microsoft conference for software developers.

The forthcoming Windows 7 will let users choose to see fewer alerts and warnings from their computers. Rampant notifications alerting people to security risks irked many Vista users.

"We had all the best intentions of helping to secure the PC platform even more, particularly for novice PC users who needed to be protected," said Steven Sinofsky, a senior vice president in Microsoft's Windows group. But Sinofsky acknowledged that Microsoft needed to work more closely with outside companies to avoid a similar mess this time.

"The real hurdle is to get Vista's reputation behind them," he said.

Windows 7 keeps some of the significant design changes that debuted in Vista, but tosses out others.

In an interview, Julie Larson-Green, a Windows vice president, offered one small example: In Vista, Microsoft took the "add printer" feature out of the Start menu, but is restoring it in Windows 7 after users complained.

Larson-Green said some changes in Vista made sense to developers but weren't fully tested on actual PC users -- a misstep she seems committed not to repeat.

With Windows 7, Microsoft is also making subtle but useful changes to the task bar along the bottom of the screen. The designers have removed redundant buttons that launch applications. When users roll over a program's icon in the task bar, it will be easier to see how many documents are open, and switch between them.

Microsoft also showed off "jumplists," a quick way of organizing recently used files or popular program features. And it introduced a concept called "libraries," which automatically collects similar files scattered across PCs on a home network and displays them together in a single folder. That could be handy for organizing a family's digital photos stored in disparate places.

Addressing another complaint about Vista, Microsoft said Windows 7 will be faster and need less memory to run. Vista generally needs costlier hardware configurations than the older Windows XP.

Sinofsky held up a "netbook" -- a low-cost, low-power laptop that would have a hard time running Vista -- and said it's working with Windows 7.

Microsoft's early 2009 target for people to begin toying with Windows 7 is striking because the Redmond, Wash.-based company promised deadlines it couldn't keep when it was developing Vista. Microsoft is trying hard to avoid a similar debacle this time. Sinofsky said there is no date yet for the next milestone, a "release to manufacturing" version of Windows 7, but reiterated that the system is set to go on sale in early 2010.

Silver, the analyst, noted that Windows Vista rejigged complex aspects of the software's plumbing, while Windows 7 is largely a cosmetic overhaul. That might spare this launch from many of the compatibility programs that dogged Vista.

Silver was impressed by how Windows 7 handles home networking with fewer headaches than Vista or XP. A big improvement on that front could help keep customers who consider ditching Windows, swayed by Apple Inc.'s claims that such tasks are easier on a Mac.

Building on a broader strategy to meld the best elements of Web and desktop software, Microsoft also showed off lightweight versions of Word, Excel, PowerPoint and OneNote software that work in Web browsers and look as they normally do, but don't have to be installed on a PC.

The new programs were running "in the cloud" on the new Windows Azure system Microsoft unveiled Monday, a move aimed at helping it catch up with Google and other nimbler Web companies. Azure lets Microsoft run software and store data in its own massive data centers around the world, instead of requiring people to install programs on their own PCs.

The Office Web programs represent what Microsoft believes is a more polished take on what Google has tried. Microsoft's online Office programs let people work on a document at the same time, and make it easier to publish charts and PowerPoint presentations to blogs with few clicks.

The Web software, to be offered without charge for regular PC users, will launch with the next version of Office. No date has been set.

Silver, the analyst, said he had always expected Microsoft to build on its rudimentary Web Office tools, and noted that the company still has time to tinker, because relatively few people use Google's online documents offering today.

The peek at the new programs didn't address his biggest concern, though: whether Microsoft can promote Web versions without undercutting its very lucrative desktop software business.

CNN.com

I'm encouraged by this more polished version of what Microsoft intended with Vista, but still quite shocked that a company with such a large monopoly and resources, can't innovate and instead simply copies popular functions that have been on OSX for a decade.

If in Vista, Flip3D was a blatant rip off of OSX's Exposé, this next one couldn't be any more indicative of Microsoft's culture: "Redmond, if you're unable to innovate on your own, copy what the other guy has done right"

Microsoft brings the OSX Dock to Windows 7:

 

[ProjectEnd]

How about settling this on something concrete...like basic specs.

Specs are quoted from the Futureshop.ca website.

Desktop anyone?

The 20" iMac something-or-other retails for about 1300$ plus taxes. For that you get:

1 GHz of Ram
250 GB HD
128MB ATI Radeon HD 2400 XT (128Mb)

For the princely sum of 300$ (plus taxes) you can have a Compaq Presario (hardly the best PC, I know). This PC comes with:

2 GHz of RAM
500 GB HD
NVIDIA GeForce 7100 (64Mb)

So, for around 1/4 of the price, you can get something twice as good? Minus the graphics card, of course, but for that money, who cares?

For fun, lets look at an equivalent PC for 1300$.

An all-in-one design, like the Mac, such as the HP Intel Core 2 Duo T5750, priced at 1399$ comes with:

A 22" monitor (2" larger than the Mac's)
4GHz DDR2 RAM
320 GB HD
Intel Graphics Media Accelerator X3100 (128Mb)

More punch? A tower-style PC such as the HP Pavilion Elite Intel Core2 is priced at 1300$ and comes with:

8GB DDR2 RAM
750GB Hd
NVIDIA GeForce 9800 GT (900MHz)

To put this into perspective, the most expensive Mac that Future Shop sells retails for around 2900$ - more than twice as much as the computer noted above. The Steve-Jobs-O-Matic comes with:

2GB DDR2 RAM
320GB HD
ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT (a good graphics card, but hardly the best)

So, for more than twice the price, the Mac still can't hold up against a budget PC.

Mac Sucks

 

[digi]

I'm calling them out on the common misconceptions people have with anything that isn't Windows.

You've been called out of your misconceptions you have about PC's...and you respond with personal attacks.
You can't answer the questions posed to you, so you ignored them.

 

[smuncky]

How about settling this on something concrete...like basic specs.

that's what it boils down to for me.

you can get much better specs for a lot less. simple as that.

 

[w.ll.am]

A big negative for Mac that no one ever mentions. Every time they upgrade from 10.x to 10.x you have to pay for it. Since OSX came out XP has been giving free updates the whole time including major ones. OSX has been through 4 major upgrades and you have to purchase each one.

The best part is that if you don't buy the upgrade your software may not work on the previous version. On XP most software will work even if you don't install the service packs.

It's true that now there's really not much of a difference between Mac and PC anymore other than system software and price. While laptops are a little more comparable the desktops certainly aren't. Especially since you can't just purchase and optimize your hardware for your needs.

 

[MetroMan]

^

Another major misconception. You're confusing point updates with new OS's.

You pay for new versions of the OS just like you pay for a new version of Windows.

Apple releases a new OS with major features every 2-3 years. Microsoft releases their own new OS's less often. Apple's been on the ball with releasing a new OS to keep up with trends and new demands while Microsoft has been quite complacent with their own OS's, often being quite late (i.e. Vista) with new releases.

Free point updates to each individual OS X are released quite often. Every few months, updates – equivalent to Windows' SP1, SP2, etc – are released.

You pay for an upgrade from OSX Panther to Tiger, from Tiger to Leopard just as you would pay for an upgrade from Microsoft Windows 95 to XP and from XP to Vista and soon to Windows 7.

To counter your point, you should know that Windows Vista (Ultimate) sells for $339 or you can settle for Windows Home Premium with less features for $129. OSX Leopard sells in one version – no artificial limitations – for $129.

So far, I've found it compelling to upgrade to every new version of OSX.

 

[MetroMan]

W.ll.am, your post and those of many others in this discussion demonstrates quite clearly how people consider themselves expert enough to criticize the Mac OS, but attack it with erroneous misconceptions which displays how, in fact, they know little about it.

I was a regular Windows user, considered the go to guy for help fixing and building PCs for my friends and family. One day I decided to learn more about other options because I became displeased with the constant maintenance required of my PCs.

Today, I'm a very satisfied Apple consumer with only one PC left in the house... one that sits very lonely, never used. I have a choice, but I consistently choose OS X for its power, simplicity, easy management and worry free maintenance. I actually spend time being productive rather than having to constantly manage the computer I use.

That said, I'm no expert in everything-to-do-with-computers. I have a lot to learn about Linux.

While I can easily criticize it with common clichés about how it isn't accessible to regular users, how its experimental and prone to compatibility issues and crashes, I recognize that I have a lot to learn before earning the right to debate a matter which I'm unfamiliar with.

The same goes for Windows users who know little about Mac and then go on to spew out incorrect statements that show just how the Windows monopoly owns them.

 

[MetroMan]

... and to be clear. I'm not attacking you personally W.ll.am, as some may have you believe. I'm pointing out the recurring theme in the Mac vs PC debate: quite often, criticisms of the Mac platform are incorrect misconceptions, easily refuted such as your statement and the one made earlier by Hipster Duck.

 

[digi]

metroman, your post and those of many others in this discussion demonstrates quite clearly how people consider themselves expert enough to criticize the the windows platform, but attack it with erroneous misconceptions which displays how, in fact, they know little about it.

Oh the irony....

 

[digi]

I'm pointing out the recurring theme in the Mac vs PC debate: quite often, criticisms of the Mac platform are incorrect misconceptions,

What's really funny about this is, Apples current marketing campaign is based soley on incorrect misconceptions and outright lies....but the mac folks eat it up!

 

[MetroMan]

Oh the irony....

Why don't you point out an example of me propagating misconceptions of the Windows platform instead of jutting out one liners?

My posts have been pointing out the misconceptions that people have been caught spewing out on the Mac, justifications those that they say make it inferior. Two solid examples were those of W.ll.am just now saying that Mac makes you pay for updates – False – and Hipster Duck stating that the great disadvantage of Macs is that they can't use shortcuts in Word and Excel – also False.

I've also demonstrated how Microsoft has been complacent with their monopoly and has consistently been copying the successes of other OS's, the most recent and blatant being that of Windows 7 introducing the Mac OSX dock, over a decade after Apple brought it out as an icon and central pillar of their GUI.

Some background:
My experience with PC's goes back nearly 20 years ago when I was just a boy and I convinced my dad to get an Amiga for..uhh.. word processing. 5 years later, we got our first Windows PC, and I introduced my family to Windows 3.1. I built my first computer when Windows 95 came out and later built many more for my family and friends.

I later went on to program for the Windows and Windows mobile platforms at a communications company where, despite only making products for Windows, 3/4 of the staff owned Macs. That raised my curiosity.

I had had it when Windows XP didn't solve the problems that I had to deal with on regular basis – viruses, driver incompatibilities, slow downs over the life of the OS and constant reinstalling of the OS every 6 months or less – and I looked at the alternatives.

I still own a single PC, but it sits there, unused.

With that all in mind, I can affirm that I had plenty of time to know Windows inside and out and make an informed decision on moving to Mac OSX.

There are plenty of reasons why one would want a PC over a Mac, cheap being one of them... but then again, you get what you pay for. Another is definitely for the DIY user. You can easily take apart a PC and update it yourself... but then again, you have to deal with any problems that arise from the nature of Windows not being designed specifically for what you just put in your PC.

The Mac deals with a PC as an appliance, like a TV or a DVD player. It's push-button easy, without redundancies that add clutter and because the software is designed around the specific hardware, incompatibilities are non-existent and the pool of possible problems is limited and easily correctable through updates.

Inside though, it is infinitely customizable through the UNIX based Terminal for the more DIY type.

I don't insist that you use a Mac, that's not my business... however, I will correct somebody when they spew out false statements, fruits of ones ignorance of the platform.

 

[syn]

Thanks for your input Hipster Duck. All the while, that claim is much different than your initial assertion that a PC has an "unarguable advantage" over a Mac because it can use shortcuts in Word and Excel.

Nonetheless, in keeping with the spirit of this thread, here's some news on Windows next release:



I'm encouraged by this more polished version of what Microsoft intended with Vista, but still quite shocked that a company with such a large monopoly and resources, can't innovate and instead simply copies popular functions that have been on OSX for a decade.

If in Vista, Flip3D was a blatant rip off of OSX's Exposé, this next one couldn't be any more indicative of Microsoft's culture: "Redmond, if you're unable to innovate on your own, copy what the other guy has done right"

Microsoft brings the OSX Dock to Windows 7:

I prefer the Start button to the Dock, personally, but as far as program management the Dock is definitely superior. This upgrade seems to take it a step above the Dock (but it still seems like the Taskbar).

However, I don't really see what the big deal is. MS and Apple have been copying each other for years now. That's one reason I don't know why Apple fans love to point it out when it's done on the Windows end. Apple does it too.

Overall this is a pretty limited overview of Windows 7, which should have a lot of new features. Your idea that MS isn't innovating with Windows 7 simply because of the Taskbar changes is inaccurate. Windows 7 is introducing Multi-Touch gestures based on their Surfaces platform. This means that instead of just having Multi-Touch gestures on a trackpad, there will be a whole class of computers with full Multi-Touch screens. If things go according to plan, even current touch screen systems should be able to use Multi-Touch gestures. As I've mentioned, Surfaces is more impressive than Apple's Multi-Touch offerings in quite a few ways. One of the most impressive things (assuming PC makers build new touch screen systems with MS Surface specs in mind, which is likely) is the ability to have your system download information from your phone (for example) by simply placing it on the screen. It should also enable object recognition. For example, if you use a real paint brush with a paint program, it should work just as it should with real paint. All of this is far beyond anything Apple has in their MT offerings, and quite innovative. In fact, Surfaces was the inspiration for the futuristic technology portrayed in Minority Report.

MS certainly isn't perfect (far from it) and has taken good ideas and implemented them in it's products. Apple has done the same. The difference is that when MS does it it's 'copying', 'stealing' or 'not innovating' and when Apple does it people laud them for smart design.

MS does indeed innovate, like most successful technology companies do. They've helped develop (and supported the development) of touch technology for many years. Surfaces and Multi-Touch in Windows 7 should be a pretty clear indication of their ability to innovate.

You should really try taking off your Apple goggles once in a while.

Why don't you point out an example of me propagating misconceptions of the Windows platform instead of jutting out one liners?

You can start with the first page of this thread.

My posts have been pointing out the misconceptions that people have been caught spewing out on the Mac, justifications those that they say make it inferior. Two solid examples were those of W.ll.am just now saying that Mac makes you pay for updates – False – and Hipster Duck stating that the great disadvantage of Macs is that they can't use shortcuts in Word and Excel – also False.

Your posts have been littered with a whole set of Apple biased misconceptions of your own.

I've also demonstrated how Microsoft has been complacent with their monopoly

Yes, with some limited and biased comparisons...which isn't much of a demonstration at all.

and has consistently been copying the successes of other OS's,

Just like Apple.

the most recent and blatant being that of Windows 7 introducing the Mac OSX dock, over a decade after Apple brought it out as an icon and central pillar of their GUI.

Kind of like how Apple finally standardized the multi-button mouse about 10-15 years after it was done on the PC?

The same goes for Windows users who know little about Mac and then go on to spew out incorrect statements that show just how the Windows monopoly owns them.

The same goes for Mac users who know little about Windows and then go on to spew out incorrect statements that show just how the Apple marketing machine owns them.

There, fixed that for you .