TDSB Ponders Black-Focused Schools

[Observer Walt]

A number of years ago I worked for a while with a young black woman who had grown up in the Jane-Finch area. She confided that, when she was circulating a resume to potential employers, she did not state her real home address, as it would have "labelled" her from the beginning, in the minds of some people at least. She used an address of a friend who lived in another part of the city, so that it would project an image that she was from a more middle-class background. Apparently she wasn't the only one who did this.

Sad maybe, but true.

By similar reasoning, I wonder how many young people graduating from the "black" high school would feel labelled, and might not want the school name to show up on a resume or employment record.

I don't have the answer, but I don't think segregation is the answer to the problems of young blacks in Toronto.

 

[Admiral Beez]

A number of years ago I worked for a while with a young black woman who had grown up in the Jane-Finch area. She confided that, when she was circulating a resume to potential employers, she did not state her real home address, as it would have "labelled" her from the beginning, in the minds of some people at least. She used an address of a friend who lived in another part of the city, so that it would project an image that she was from a more middle-class background. Apparently she wasn't the only one who did this.

In many countries, such as France, resumes must be accompanied by a photo, which ensures that no "unwanted minorities" make it to the interview stage. IIRC, in the US this used to be the norm as well. Bigots always find a way I suppose.

 

[EnviroTO]

I think education based on skin pigmentation is about the dumbest idea ever conceived. At what level of pigmentation does it really start to impact learning? How dark does the skin need to be to teach at Dark Pigmentation High? A black teacher is automatically good for black students? This whole thing sounds to me like parents trying to turn things they should be responsible for into failures with the system.

Teachers tend to invest as little effort as they can in ensuring the black students keep up with everyone else. If teachers can score a higher class passing average overall by neglecting the one or two black kids in the class they'll do it.

If that was true wouldn't it be worse if you took all the black people out of the class and put them into the same school. If what you are saying is true, the black students are slowing down the class, so if you take them out the remaining class will excel further and then the black school will really have to really be good to catch up. In any case, I fail to see how the solution to teachers investing little time in students that don't seem to want to be in school is solved by creating a school filled with other students who are equally uninterested in school rather than putting more effort into figuring out why certain students fall behind and how to motivate them.

If black schools and black teachers are the solution then if you were to look at a naturally black school in central Detroit then you would see grade 'A' students. Black students from primarily black universities would be better educated than black students from mixed universities. I don't see any evidence of this though.

I see evidence that students who don't want to learn don't learn, see that students with absentee parents tend to be more at risk, and that students with a poor diet and home life don't tend to reach the same level of education. I see this as true in all white communities as much as I do in mixed communities. If you go to a less prosperous area of Scotland where both parents need to work and financial pressures seem to have led to greater levels of divorce you can find white kids running around like hooligans causing trouble and not getting a decent education.

again, what makes you think this is a race issue? i was an underachiever in elementary school. was it a race issue? no, there were other factors at play. i changed schools and got better grades.

I agree. I was in the office and underachieving all through elementary school. I was in the principals office almost daily. It wasn't until I separated myself from friends less interested in education that I was able to achieve anything significant. It would probably be better to take a problem student and put him in a school without his peers, force him to be involved in specific extracurricular activities, and enforce a dress code so he can focus on school rather than whatever preoccupies him now.

I sucked at finding a job after school as well. I wonder if I would blame all the rejection letters I received on being a minority if I had been one and had had a level of mistrust with society in general because otherwise I would have had to accept that I was not doing a good job of finding empty positions or had an uninspiring resume and cover letter.

I'm not saying that there is no racism because there certainly is and it impacts many, but it is hard to know how much it plays a factor. Creating a black school to me is almost like saying that it is so prevalent that all the existing teachers should be fired and the only reason that certain black students are underachieving is due to racism at school. I don't buy it. I want someone to explain to me why skin pigmentation impacts certain groups more than others. People don't want to see that skin pigmentation, while it may play some part in discrimination, is so far from explaining the whole thing that creating a black school is ridiculous.

 

[CDL.TO]

I think education based on skin pigmentation is about the dumbest idea ever conceived. At what level of pigmentation does it really start to impact learning? How dark does the skin need to be to teach at Dark Pigmentation High?

Draw a circle around permitted shades...

 

[rpgr]

@cdl.to

LOL

 

[DENTROBATE54]

what makes you think that separating skin colors will make the situation better? again, what makes you think this is a race issue? i was an underachiever in elementary school. was it a race issue? no, there were other factors at play. i changed schools and got better grades.

If you divide people by their skin complexion how is it not a racial issue? I never said with certainty it would make the situation beeter, what I'm saying is that if students aren't in an environment favorable to them excelling at academics is it not better to place them in a more conducive educational climate? Racism exists in all facets of society sadly and even the best of us subliminally make msitakes, teachers and peers included. Without roadblocks to the learning process such as racial prejudice and bias, there's one less thing impeding the success of black youth. You also said it was only after you switched schools that your own grades improved. So isn't it hypocritical of you to now say black youth should remain in a prejudical system that's all but given up on them?

If that was true wouldn't it be worse if you took all the black people out of the class and put them into the same school. If what you are saying is true, the black students are slowing down the class, so if you take them out the remaining class will excel further and then the black school will really have to really be good to catch up. In any case, I fail to see how the solution to teachers investing little time in students that don't seem to want to be in school is solved by creating a school filled with other students who are equally uninterested in school rather than putting more effort into figuring out why certain students fall behind and how to motivate them.

?? It's a free choice whether or not to attend, no one is coerced. Classrooms however do have a bellcurve whereby only a certain number of students can pass and advance. If black students have the misfortune of finding themselves in the margin that doesn't, then of course they'll become uninterested in school. The key is to identify these students early on and give them the extra assistance they might need. You're acting like a black-only school is a form of punishment or embarassment, when it fact you could and should acknowledge it as a chance to turn lives around while there's still hope to do so.

I see this as true in all white communities as much as I do in mixed communities.

I know the problem isn't limited to the black community, it's just easier to bracket it that way I suppose if the majority of underachievers look a certain way. Unlike Muslim (Middle-Easterners only) or ESL (Asians only), blacks don't have the luxury of possessing an unifying culture or faith specific deceptive misnomer to mask what the intent behind certain private schools are really about.

 

[Disparishun]

Unlike Muslim (Middle-Easterners only) or ESL (Asians only), blacks don't have the luxury of possessing an unifying culture or faith specific deceptive misnomer to mask what the intent behind certain private schools are really about.

You know it's pretty hard not to see that as an ignorant and insulting rap. Faith-based schools -- which are, obviously, either Catholic and publicly-funded, or else privately-funded -- do not "mask" what they are about or try to "deceive" others about it. They're pretty darn up front about it. Jewish schools really do announce to the world that they are Jewish. Ditto for Muslim schools. And for Armenian schools. And so forth.

As for Muslim schools being Middle-Easterners only, or ESL being Asians only ... uh, what?

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

re: DENTROBATE54

If you divide people by their skin complexion how is it not a racial issue?

you're not making sense. you're twisting your and my words around.

skin color doesn't determine intelligence, segregation doesn't increase ones chance to become more intelligent.

I never said with certainty it would make the situation beeter, what I'm saying is that if students aren't in an environment favorable to them excelling at academics is it not better to place them in a more conducive educational climate? Racism exists in all facets of society sadly and even the best of us subliminally make msitakes, teachers and peers included. Without roadblocks to the learning process such as racial prejudice and bias, there's one less thing impeding the success of black youth. You also said it was only after you switched schools that your own grades improved. So isn't it hypocritical of you to now say black youth should remain in a prejudical system that's all but given up on them?

i didn't change school systems nor did i go to a race based school. i simply moved around in the SAME system. i was exposed to different teachers and different students. i had a second chance to start off on a good foot.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

You know it's pretty hard not to see that as an ignorant and insulting rap. As for Muslim schools being Middle-Easterners only, or ESL being Asians only ... uh, what?

Are those schools not predominantly comprised of one distinctive ethnic group? Hence these schools fundementally exclude others by design even if that's not the intent.

What I meant by masking was it's not like you could create a school on the basis of Reggae, rap or another afro-specific entity with the expectation the student body would be mainly black. There are many sub-groups within the black community and without a unifying faith or language to distinguish themselves from other students in the general population, the most effective grouping tactic is their race. I don't mean to offend, I guess it's hard to get into these discussions without ruffling some feathers.

you're not making sense. you're twisting your and my words around. skin color doesn't determine intelligence, segregation doesn't increase ones chance to become more intelligent.

"what makes you think that separating skin colors will make the situation better? "It's better to try and fail, then to never try at all!""

Your words. Again it's obvious the way things are now isn't working. I'm not saying this is an ultimate solution, I'm saying it's the system finally giving a crap when before they'd ignore the prevalent bias and division already creating racial tensions and segregation with miltiethnic, pluralist high schools and contributing to the distinction between the academic preformances of black and non-black students deeming it as "it's their problem" when at least now the status quo recognizes "it's our problem, too!"

i didn't change school systems nor did i go to a race based school. i simply moved around in the SAME system. i was exposed to different teachers and different students. i had a second chance to start off on a good foot.

"i changed schools and got better grades."

Everything you just explained is exactly what an Afrocentric instituition can do for black youth. It's appears we're both in agreeance, a change in the academic environment, whatever the reasoning behind it, is a necessary consequent in acquiring higher grades.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

re: DENTROBATE54

"what makes you think that separating skin colors will make the situation better? "It's better to try and fail, then to never try at all!"

Your words. Again it's obvious the way things are now isn't working. I'm not saying this is an ultimate solution, I'm saying it's the system finally giving a crap when before they'd ignore the prevalent bias and division already creating racial tensions and segregation with miltiethnic, pluralist high schools and contributing to the distinction between the academic preformances of black and non-black students deeming it as "it's their problem" when at least now the status quo recognizes "it's our problem, too!"

no, the first part "what makes you think that separating skin colors will make the situation better? " are my words, the second part= "It's better to try and fail, then to never try at all!" are YOUR words. you are misquoting.

"i changed schools and got better grades."

Everything you just explained is exactly what an Afrocentric instituition can do for black youth. It's appears we're both in agreeance, a change in the academic environment, whatever the reasoning behind it, is a necessary consequent in acquiring higher grades.

not "it's not exactly what an afrocentric school can do for black youth". it's what a change of location can do in this sense.


let me tell you this, do you think a black focused school will make black kids more interested? i was put in ethnic class, based on my nationality and i'll tell you, i really didn't give a shit about it and i didn't get good grades in that class. most of the kids in my school were white, i didn't benefit from a eurocentric school. there were other factors involved. i actually benefited when i changed schools and went to a school that was multicultural. so using your logic, it was a multi-ethnic school that made me gain interest in school and improved my grades.

 

[Glen]

Again it's obvious the way things are now isn't working. I'm not saying this is an ultimate solution, I'm saying it's the system finally giving a crap when before they'd ignore the prevalent bias and division already creating racial tensions and segregation with miltiethnic, pluralist high schools and contributing to the distinction between the academic preformances of black and non-black students deeming it as "it's their problem" when at least now the status quo recognizes "it's our problem, too!"

Again that is all supposition. For that to be true, we would need to see a graduated effect. Whereas the longer spent in school the more egregious the effects. Like a typical dose response curve. I would bet you dollars to doughnuts that the black kids whom have difficulties did so before their first day of kindergarten. Just like all the other kids.

 

[EnviroTO]

So isn't it hypocritical of you to now say black youth should remain in a prejudical system that's all but given up on them?

So to combat prejudice you accept that it is what it is and then create a whole new system? Step 1: Identify problem, Step 2: Move away from it and leave it unsolved while creating a whole new level of racial segregation. The right way to solve a problem of marginalization is to reinforce marginalization with a special facility for the marginalized?

It's a free choice whether or not to attend, no one is coerced.

For students to volunteer to go to an all black school they would have to have decided that they actually want to focus on an education in which case they probably aren't the problem students. More likely problem students will be identified by teachers or parents and told they are going to the new school.

The key is to identify these students early on and give them the extra assistance they might need. You're acting like a black-only school is a form of punishment or embarassment, when it fact you could and should acknowledge it as a chance to turn lives around while there's still hope to do so.

You don't think that identifying these individuals and shipping them off to black school is going to have any stigma or embarrassment attached to it? This school isn't going to be where successful students go. It will be rehab with a skin colour requirement for entry. Under-performing white kids, asian kids, indian kids, native kids, etc are on their own and need not apply.

I know the problem isn't limited to the black community, it's just easier to bracket it that way I suppose if the majority of underachievers look a certain way.

Sure. It is much easier to say it is a black problem than to find out what the real problem is. Colour coding is something people understand more than a whole taxonomy of the real issues (i.e. Deer Flies bite, House Flies don't bite. Simplified: Flies bite and should all be handled the same way).

Unlike Muslim (Middle-Easterners only) or ESL (Asians only), blacks don't have the luxury of possessing an unifying culture or faith specific deceptive misnomer to mask what the intent behind certain private schools are really about.

There is a wide array of muslims and a wide array of people going to ESL. That is one of the most silly things I have ever heard. I question why blacks would need a "unifying culture" in any case. It seems to be something that certain people want to do but the reality is there are probably more black countries, languages, and cultures than white ones... and there is no attempt being made to create a "unifying white culture".

Everything you just explained is exactly what an Afrocentric instituition can do for black youth. It's appears we're both in agreeance, a change in the academic environment, whatever the reasoning behind it, is a necessary consequent in acquiring higher grades.

No, he explained that getting away from his old peers and teachers helped him improve. If the people he hung around had made the same transfer between schools it probably would not have been successful. He was moved to put him in a class with DIFFERENT students NOT IDENTICAL students.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

So to combat prejudice you accept that it is what it is and then create a whole new system? Step 1: Identify problem, Step 2: Move away from it and leave it unsolved while creating a whole new level of racial segregation. The right way to solve a problem of marginalization is to reinforce marginalization with a special facility for the marginalized?

Not an entirely new system. Alternative public high schools already exist for Natives and homosexuals. Where was the uproar then? Did anyone here even know about it til now? Why is it only when blacks are the group profiled it's made into such a big deal? Marginalization exists and likely is a contributing factor to poor academic preformance. If we can spare some individuals from such heartache isn't it more likely they'll preform better? Assuming this will lead to increased racial tensions is a slippery slope fallacy.

More likely problem students will be identified by teachers or parents and told they are going to the new school.

A new school in contrast to parents encouraging students to drop-out altogether to help raise younger siblings or take on full-time jobs to breadwin the households? Or worse yet youth turning to gang culture to achieve the acceptance and family one could never find in general society? You've misunderstood my support of Afrocentric schools if you didn't realize I knew it was geared towards at-risk individuals and not blacks whose parents can buy their way into better schools.

Under-performing white kids, asian kids, indian kids, native kids, etc are on their own and need not apply.

Who live in a society more invested in their success than that of black youth. I've seen countless gov't sponsored programs, school clubs, scholarships, remittencies in place for Causcasians and Asians but little to none for blacks. I could get into a long debate about how the socioeconomic divide and Old Boy's Club cruenyism have biased the system against blacks more so than any other minority but I digress.

and there is no attempt being made to create a "unifying white culture".

98% of North American media features white celebrities, white new anchors, white characters from white perspectives. If something's written about minorities in usually done from the white outsider's prespective in a patronizing or condescending manor. Don't beleive me, look at what shows have black characters and what roles they play. Rarely ever the protagonist or even a fan-favorite supporting character. There doesn't have to be a unifying white culture. Whoever controls global media, controls people's mentalities and perceptions about their place in the world.

Again that is all supposition. For that to be true, we would need to see a graduated effect. Whereas the longer spent in school the more egregious the effects. Like a typical dose response curve. I would bet you dollars to doughnuts that the black kids whom have difficulties did so before their first day of kindergarten. Just like all the other kids.

Ah-hah! There you go. This debate started from way back in the mid-90s and in the decade since nothing has improved black youth's grades. In fact they've worsened. People just love to get on their soapbox and condemn something before even seeing the results. Everything you claim wrong with this experiment, already plagues the current system and until change is made we'll always look at this proposal and sigh "What if we only had put black youth's welfare over our petty racial squabbles?"

 

[Glen]

Ah-hah! There you go. This debate started from way back in the mid-90s and in the decade since nothing has improved black youth's grades. In fact they've worsened. People just love to get on their soapbox and condemn something before even seeing the results. Everything you claim wrong with this experiment, already plagues the current system and until change is made we'll always look at this proposal and sigh "What if we only had put black youth's welfare over our petty racial squabbles?"

The TDSB has greatly increased the number of black teachers during that time. It has also added "Black History Month" to the curriculum. Despite this, if what you are saying is correct, things are getting worse. How so?

You seem to have side stepped my original point though. Look at the OSRs of the students who drop out. I am sure that the majority of them had some issues visible in JK /SK, regardless of colour. For a deficient school system to be at fault, one would need to see a relationship between time in school and the supposed negative effects and it would have to be different form non blacks.

 

[rpgr]

Not an entirely new system. Alternative public high schools already exist for Natives and homosexuals. Where was the uproar then? Did anyone here even know about it til now? Why is it only when blacks are the group profiled it's made into such a big deal? Marginalization exists and likely is a contributing factor to poor academic preformance. If we can spare some individuals from such heartache isn't it more likely they'll preform better? Assuming this will lead to increased racial tensions is a slippery slope fallacy.

Except we can see how well that's working for natives...

A new school in contrast to parents encouraging students to drop-out altogether to help raise younger siblings or take on full-time jobs to breadwin the households? Or worse yet youth turning to gang culture to achieve the acceptance and family one could never find in general society? You've misunderstood my support of Afrocentric schools if you didn't realize I knew it was geared towards at-risk individuals and not blacks whose parents can buy their way into better schools.

If a parent is pressuring their kids to get out and make dough, it doesn't matter what they do at school short of taking the kid away from the parent. Yet once again, how does this relate to the fact that the all black schools are from Kindergarden to gr.8 which is the proposed plan?

Who live in a society more invested in their success than that of black youth. I've seen countless gov't sponsored programs, school clubs, scholarships, remittencies in place for Causcasians and Asians but little to none for blacks. I could get into a long debate about how the socioeconomic divide and Old Boy's Club cruenyism have biased the system against blacks more so than any other minority but I digress.

There are many. Black history month and a lot of sports clubs... See where the problem really is? Black history doesn't talk about the positives.. it outright assumes the exploitation angle. I don't hear much out of the head tax or the railroad that Chinese had to go through during the old days (within the Chinese community). Sports? More visions of granduer feeding the unlikely dream that they can make it through physical means only.

98% of North American media features white celebrities, white new anchors, white characters from white perspectives. If something's written about minorities in usually done from the white outsider's prespective in a patronizing or condescending manor. Don't beleive me, look at what shows have black characters and what roles they play. Rarely ever the protagonist or even a fan-favorite supporting character. There doesn't have to be a unifying white culture. Whoever controls global media, controls people's mentalities and perceptions about their place in the world.

See the WB channel and programming... Just because we don't normally watch it doesn't mean it isn't there.

Ah-hah! There you go. This debate started from way back in the mid-90s and in the decade since nothing has improved black youth's grades. In fact they've worsened. People just love to get on their soapbox and condemn something before even seeing the results. Everything you claim wrong with this experiment, already plagues the current system and until change is made we'll always look at this proposal and sigh "What if we only had put black youth's welfare over our petty racial squabbles?"

The above has been done in the states... to pretty much 0 success. It doesn't work. Even in schools which are predominantly black in the states with black teachers, etc., etc.

The problem is much more deep seated within the community. The problem started way back when, further than 1990's. Try slavery era. It's basically been them trying to play catch-up except they no longer want to play catch-up. It's in some ways a small revolt from the community in general but towards the wrong direction.

My friend personally thinks it starts at home and the values the community teaches is wrong. He's black but he hates the defeatest mentality that the community teaches. Growing up, he too noticed a difference in the way teachers taught him. His teachers loved him but gave-up on a lot of his friends growing up. Why? Because he actually wanted and did succeed. It was rewarding for teachers to teach him vs. the friends he had who had the defeatest mentality. He studied a lot of black history on his own (although his true love was very surprisingly, Nazi Germany).