GenerationW
Senior Member
Thank you Joe Stalin.
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September 11th: Real or Fraud?
- Thread starter kettal
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Kamuix, you say it isn't true that you cut and paste the same things over and over again, and then you go and do exactly that.
And where is your evidence that I've run away? I simply choose not to answer your repetitive and unfounded accusations each and every time you post them, mainly because gristle does such an excellent job of it. You have a interesting way of interpreting facts and jumping to conclusions.
And where is your evidence that I've run away? I simply choose not to answer your repetitive and unfounded accusations each and every time you post them, mainly because gristle does such an excellent job of it. You have a interesting way of interpreting facts and jumping to conclusions.
Kamuix
Active Member
And yet you believe our governments side of the story without question who have already been caught lying over and over again and used the 9/11 attacks to take away all of our freedoms and now look at our economy and where we're headed and you call us mentally-disturbed or intellectually-challenged and naive.. Our whole system is collapsing while we loose all of our freedoms and the price of living goes way up and you wonder why there's people like you guys who just buy into everything the government/media tells you. This is why they get away with it.
Why is that when Obama got into office, he went back on all his promises of change like bring the troops home, lower taxes, take away the corrupt regulations that kill small businesses and benefit big corporations, get rid of corrupt laws etc.. And continued the EXACT agenda that bush bush had? He sent more troops, added more wars, put in more regulations, raised taxes, added more corrupt laws, helped out his rich friends on wall-street etc..
Why is that when Obama got into office, he went back on all his promises of change like bring the troops home, lower taxes, take away the corrupt regulations that kill small businesses and benefit big corporations, get rid of corrupt laws etc.. And continued the EXACT agenda that bush bush had? He sent more troops, added more wars, put in more regulations, raised taxes, added more corrupt laws, helped out his rich friends on wall-street etc..
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Did I ever say that I believe the government's side of the story without question? No, I didn't. Of course I have questions. Of course I don't believe everything I read. That doesn't, however, equate to a belief in far-fetched and convoluted conspiracy theories.
I haven't had all of my freedoms taken away. It takes me a bit longer to go through security at an airport, but otherwise my life hasn't changed significantly.
And as for Obama, that's not the topic under discussion. The topic is whether the events of September 11 were real or a fraud.
I haven't had all of my freedoms taken away. It takes me a bit longer to go through security at an airport, but otherwise my life hasn't changed significantly.
And as for Obama, that's not the topic under discussion. The topic is whether the events of September 11 were real or a fraud.
Kamuix
Active Member
No but I can tell that you believe the general message that comes from the mainstream media. And sure you might have questions, but i doubt you ever plan to take time to look into it or research it anymore.
Far fetched conspiracy theories? I can't help but think the only reason it's far fetched to you is because the governments version of the story and the majority of the people still believe that original story. What if the population was lied to in order to get us into wars and benefit the politicians and big corporations(which it had) while they use it to take our freedoms away and waste tax dollars and make money etc. which has all happened. The internet is still free and the media is controlled by corporations. So is it not possible that we've been lied to from the beginning? It happened with Vietnam it happened in Germany and further back in history if you know that part of history.
Yes well it's affected many people and it's getting worse and it will affect you and everyone in the long run unless we take our government back from these big corporations. And fair enough on the obama thing.
Now I remember last time we actually started getting into a conversation like this one you ran away then came back pages later, let's see if it happens again...
EDIT: By the way, I hate that when I asked you why you run away from discussions your reason was that because Grissie is doing such a great job at explaining my flaws when it's actually been the other way around because I'm actually willing to discuss the topic, answer questions and address things. He refuses to address or answer anything and keeps saying the same thing over and over again.. I'll bet you haven't even been reading what he's been saying because he doesn't discuss anything at all. It looks to me as if you're just siding with him because you still buy into this propaganda that their are all these conspiracy theorists out there doing bad things.
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gristle
Senior Member
Kamuix, it's clear that you are so narrow-minded on this topic that you can't get your head out of your own box. Verifiable evidence is just what the words imply: evidence that is verifiable. It is proof that can be examined and tested for reliability and accuracy. A critical examination can either verify or falsify the contents or the sources. You've provided none of this.
Instead of actually seeking this information for yourself, you go on like a broken record about government and media. In this regard your line of thinking is pathetically comical because it is you who is, time after time, citing youtube media clips as a means of supporting your unproven claims. You have utterly failed to see that it is you who is the actual dupe of the paranoia media industry that finds a home on youtube. Your suspicions and fears have allowed you to fall right into this belief system, and you have embraced it all to become an absolute true believer. You are on a an irrational conspiratorial crusade and you are too blind to see it.
Proof is a very strong word, Kamuix. That is why the burden of proof lies with you to support your claims - because it is you who is making the claim for the existence of a government - 9/11 conspiracy. You must show your case in a manner that can be examined, verified or falsified. You must show sources and evidence that can be examined and verified. But then you have already admitted that you have no proof, so why do you persist in bleating on about it? Admit that you have no proof once and for all. I challenge you to do so.
To the point: you are making a claim Kamuix, and I am challenging you to prove it with verifiable evidence. Anything else you mutter on about doesn't matter. It is not germane. Either make your case or admit that you have none. Get on with it already.
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Kamuix
Active Member
You want government released evidence. The 9/11 commission report isn't actually evidence it's just a US government theory but to you it is because our government released it and said it was, right? Unless our own establishment releases something and calls it evidence that means it's evidence to you. As proof that this is true I asked you if the 9.11 commission report was evidence to you and you dodged the question.
Since I answered your questions and addressed your points I challenge you to answer this question Grissie:
Why are you unable to actually discuss the topic rather then labeling me as crazy as an excuse not to discuss the topic?
If you're too narrow minded to discuss the topic than how can you be so confident in what you believe? Why are we the people loosing our freedoms Grissie? Why are living costs going up? Do you really want to just sit there and believe everything the TV tells you without question then accuse people like me of being crazy?
And yes I'm not offering anything I said as proof why would I do that? Just as you're not offering up any proof that our government and media are telling us the truth, but worse then that you won't even discuss anything.
Since I answered your questions and addressed your points I challenge you to answer this question Grissie:
Why are you unable to actually discuss the topic rather then labeling me as crazy as an excuse not to discuss the topic?
If you're too narrow minded to discuss the topic than how can you be so confident in what you believe? Why are we the people loosing our freedoms Grissie? Why are living costs going up? Do you really want to just sit there and believe everything the TV tells you without question then accuse people like me of being crazy?
And yes I'm not offering anything I said as proof why would I do that? Just as you're not offering up any proof that our government and media are telling us the truth, but worse then that you won't even discuss anything.
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How can you tell what I believe? Are you a psychic mind reader? For the record, I believe that planes hit the towers because it is preposterous to think that could have been faked and there is no real evidence that that is not what happened. There are *cue spooky music* coincidences, but there is not a shred of real evidence that it didn't happen. As to who caused that to happen and why is far less clear.
And like Gristle, I do believe Kamuix, based on the evidence of your many posts in this thread, that you are the most narrow-minded poster in this thread. You also make up the facts to suit your own needs. For example, you continue to say that Gristle believes every word of a government report which he has never claimed to do. You disbelieve every word of that same report although you haven't read it. How is that being open-minded?
And like Gristle, I do believe Kamuix, based on the evidence of your many posts in this thread, that you are the most narrow-minded poster in this thread. You also make up the facts to suit your own needs. For example, you continue to say that Gristle believes every word of a government report which he has never claimed to do. You disbelieve every word of that same report although you haven't read it. How is that being open-minded?
Kamuix
Active Member
All I said is that I can tell that you believe the general message that comes from the media based on what you say and the way you argue. Obviously the towers were hit my planes but planes alone cannot bring down a skyscraper like that and there's tons of good sources out there that show there were explosives involved. Politicians stage fake attacks to get us into wars it's happened over and over again in history.
And don't try and turn the whole narrow minded thing around on me, I know he doesn't believe every word but obviously he believes the general story told to us by our politicians. like I said when it comes to the open-minded stuff it's actually been the other way around because I'm actually willing to discuss the topic, answer questions and address things. He refuses to address or answer anything and keeps saying the same thing over and over again.. I'll bet you haven't even been reading what he's been saying because he doesn't discuss anything at all. It looks to me as if you're just siding with him because you still buy into this propaganda that their are all these conspiracy theorists out there doing bad things. You seem to be going in the same direction...
And don't try and turn the whole narrow minded thing around on me, I know he doesn't believe every word but obviously he believes the general story told to us by our politicians. like I said when it comes to the open-minded stuff it's actually been the other way around because I'm actually willing to discuss the topic, answer questions and address things. He refuses to address or answer anything and keeps saying the same thing over and over again.. I'll bet you haven't even been reading what he's been saying because he doesn't discuss anything at all. It looks to me as if you're just siding with him because you still buy into this propaganda that their are all these conspiracy theorists out there doing bad things. You seem to be going in the same direction...
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I do indeed read everything Gristle posts. You cut and paste. You don't answer questions, you refer to youtubes. You don't discuss, you tell people they are brainwashed.
Are you an engineer? Do you know what can bring down a building? I am not an engineer nor an explosive expert or anything like. For every one of your 1,200 supposed engineers (and are they all structural engineers?) who say it didn't happen, there are many more who can demonstrate how it could happen. The Titanic was supposed to be unsinkable, yet it sunk. Stuff happens.
Are you an engineer? Do you know what can bring down a building? I am not an engineer nor an explosive expert or anything like. For every one of your 1,200 supposed engineers (and are they all structural engineers?) who say it didn't happen, there are many more who can demonstrate how it could happen. The Titanic was supposed to be unsinkable, yet it sunk. Stuff happens.
Kamuix
Active Member
I cut and pasted things because he says the same thing over and over again so I have to refer him to old points. Honestly I can't help but think you're only siding with him because you don't want to discuss the topic because when discussions take place things get rules out and at the end of the discussion some people may change their opinion or have different thoughts then previously and although if you're an open-minded person it's alright but if you're narrow minded to the point where you are pretty much programmed to believe something and are to stubborn to discuss something other then saying I'm crazy and getting angry over it then continue walking blindly into the future.
Many people who have come out against 9/11 receive threats and many people who came out especially back when it happened claimed to have been threatened. Again all I'm asking is for you to be open-minded and It's hard to get that from people these days.
Many people who have come out against 9/11 receive threats and many people who came out especially back when it happened claimed to have been threatened. Again all I'm asking is for you to be open-minded and It's hard to get that from people these days.
I happen to be an extremely open-minded person with an ability to see many shades of grey in a discussion. My opinions are seldom those of the majority, which can be really annoying when you're also voting for the losing candidate. I frequently change my opinion after doing research. However, you have not given me one single piece of information or evidence or even food for thought to convince me. It's not that I'm narrow-minded, it's that you and your YouTubes are not convincing.
People claim to have been threatened. By whom? Threatened with what? People claim many things, every day. Anyone can say anything. If you're good enough, you'll even get the media on your side -- gee, what about those claims that the world was coming to an end a few weeks ago? That turned out well, didn't it?
If there was some grand conspiracy, there wouldn't be threats, there would be deaths and disappearances. And who are these "many people"? How many people? Where?
People claim to have been threatened. By whom? Threatened with what? People claim many things, every day. Anyone can say anything. If you're good enough, you'll even get the media on your side -- gee, what about those claims that the world was coming to an end a few weeks ago? That turned out well, didn't it?
If there was some grand conspiracy, there wouldn't be threats, there would be deaths and disappearances. And who are these "many people"? How many people? Where?
Kamuix
Active Member
It's not whether you're open minded or not it's how open minded you are and you can be open-minded about certain things but not others.
See when you refer to the documentaries as 'YouTubes' that kind of tells me that you're trying to discredit them that way to help convince yourself that it's not convincing. They are documentaries that you can buy Online and buy in stores actually I know i've seen Loose Change in stores. So really why do you try and discredit them that way?
See you obviously haven't watched Loose Change because in it they cover people who have been threatened and told to shut up about what they saw and in a few cases given money to not talk about what they saw or what happened. Why don't you just first open your mind to the fact that this event could have been staged and we could have been lied to because neither side has any evidence or any absolute proof of any matter. I'd ask you to watch Loose Change but I highly doubt you will. And don't tell me you already watched it because you're asking me questions that many shows, documents and documentaries etc. have covered including Loose Change.
See when you refer to the documentaries as 'YouTubes' that kind of tells me that you're trying to discredit them that way to help convince yourself that it's not convincing. They are documentaries that you can buy Online and buy in stores actually I know i've seen Loose Change in stores. So really why do you try and discredit them that way?
See you obviously haven't watched Loose Change because in it they cover people who have been threatened and told to shut up about what they saw and in a few cases given money to not talk about what they saw or what happened. Why don't you just first open your mind to the fact that this event could have been staged and we could have been lied to because neither side has any evidence or any absolute proof of any matter. I'd ask you to watch Loose Change but I highly doubt you will. And don't tell me you already watched it because you're asking me questions that many shows, documents and documentaries etc. have covered including Loose Change.
Ah, so you're finally admitting a lack of evidence. So what makes your position without evidence any more compelling than the mainstream media's position which has evidence (albeit evidence which you don't accept)?
If the event was staged (staged means it didn't really happen) where are the towers? They're not there. If you are using the term staged in an incorrect way, i.e., that it wasn't only planes that brought down the towers, who is to say who planted any extra explosives? If extra explosives were used, they could well have been put in place by terrorists. There is no proof that explosives were used by the way, but I'm just giving you a "what if".
I didn't use YouTube in a disparaging way. Documentaries can be done on YouTube -- it's simply a medium. You assumed that I have a negative view of YouTube -- which is a problem you seem to have, i.e., always interpreting things negatively where no negative inference was intended. That's a sign of paranoia.
And no, I haven't watched Loose Change, because after watching the first batch of links you posted, I gave up because it was all the same paranoid listing of far-fetched coincidences that a few people cobbled together in an attempt to come up with a complex and unrealistic conspiracy theory.
If the event was staged (staged means it didn't really happen) where are the towers? They're not there. If you are using the term staged in an incorrect way, i.e., that it wasn't only planes that brought down the towers, who is to say who planted any extra explosives? If extra explosives were used, they could well have been put in place by terrorists. There is no proof that explosives were used by the way, but I'm just giving you a "what if".
I didn't use YouTube in a disparaging way. Documentaries can be done on YouTube -- it's simply a medium. You assumed that I have a negative view of YouTube -- which is a problem you seem to have, i.e., always interpreting things negatively where no negative inference was intended. That's a sign of paranoia.
And no, I haven't watched Loose Change, because after watching the first batch of links you posted, I gave up because it was all the same paranoid listing of far-fetched coincidences that a few people cobbled together in an attempt to come up with a complex and unrealistic conspiracy theory.
gristle
Senior Member
You are incorrect Kamuix. I have made no reference whatsoever to what you refer to as "government" evidence. I have challenged you to furnish verifiable evidence and have outlined some of the qualities that would be necessary to showing the existence of a conspiracy. Add to this, you have failed to indicate why you doubt the contents or conclusions of the 9/11 Commission Report because you have not even read this. Remember, you are the person making the accusation of a government conspiracy with respect to the events of of 9/11. I am challenging you to prove your claim with evidence. You have admittedly failed to do this.
Because you have failed to offer anything to discuss Kamuix. All you have posted is your unsubstantiated opinion. There isn't much to discuss. Start providing actual verifiable evidence. That is substance. Your paranoid musings and vacant exhortations about open-mindedness are topics without substance.
As noted Kamuix, you have provided nothing but an unsubstantiated opinion and nothing more. You admit having no evidence. Other than registering that subjective and unsupported point of view here on this thread, you have offered nothing of substance to discuss. It appears that all you want is a session of mental masturbation in which you can run on about all your paranoid fears ranging from 9/11 to drugs. Your references to the TV-watching are comical. You are the one who constantly posts from youtube, and you post items that possess a point of view exclusively focussed on paranoia and conspiracy. Yet you appear to be utterly incapable of comprehending that it is you who has exhibited the most narrow-minded of positions here. You admit having no evidence, constantly cite media with which you share a similar mind-set, speak of multiple conspiracies while not even providing a modicum of proof, and then proclaim that others are supposedly "narrow-minded" because they demand that you actually provide some validation for your position. You are either too afraid to admit the utter shallowness of your position, or too arrogant to accept the reality that your position is without substance. Or both.
Another problem of yours Kamuix is that it is you who is the source of repetition. As I have noted throughout this thread, I am not defending any position. I am asking questions. I am challenging you to prove your claim of a conspiracy. I am demanding that you produce actual, verifiable corroborating evidence to support your claim. You have admitted that you have no evidence. That means all you possess is an unsubstantiated opinion. That's hardly a topic worthy of a lengthy discussion. That you then call people narrow-minded for not wanting to yammer on about your vague thoughts, fantasies and paranoid machinations is simply pathetic.
You have made an accusation of a conspiracy. Back it up with evidence that can be examined, verified or falsified, or finally admit that all you have is an unsubstantiated opinion and nothing more. Others have long figured out that you are nothing but a cipher on the topic, and it's high time that you realize this for yourself.
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