September 11th: Real or Fraud?

[gristle]

Your narrow minded and manipulative way of arguing isn't fooling anyone anymore...

Obviously it has fooled you Kamuix because I am not making an argument; I'm challenging you to produce to credible, verifiable corroborative evidence to support your claims of a government conspiracy. There's nothing at all narrow about this. The request is pretty straight up. It's you who has failed to to support your assertions Kamuix. I've merely stated what you have finally admitted to: you have no evidence. You only have an unsupported opinion. Why don't you admit this once and for all?

I think deep down you don't quite believe what you're trying to convince yourself haha. It's actually kind of funny to watch you try and convince yourself that you are making good points.

Once again, operating without any supporting evidence leaves you looking foolish Kamuix. What is funny is watching your weak attempts at trying to divert attention away from your failure to provide evidence to back up your claims. I think that deep down you are terrified that you have nothing to stand on. I think that deep down you know you have a problem with that rampant paranoia of yours. I have no evidence for these beliefs, but I can post them.

Here's another thing to consider not that I think your narrow minds have the ability to be open minded: In history and currently most countries governments and politics propagandize their people to think what they want them to think.

Before you go on with such things, why don't you admit here that your conspiracy beliefs could be wrong? Why don't you stand and act on the principles you pretend to hold up and state here that you don't have any evidence to support your conspiracy claims and that you admit that your opinions could be wrong? Why don't you do that before talking about other people.

Oh, and I have another question for the brainwashed: Why is that when Obama got into office ...

Oh! but we're in Canada! Oh wait a minute.. we voted Stephen Harper back in who was giving big corporations tax breaks, adding regulations and doing other things that we're sending productive producers away from our counter ...

See this is what I mean, until you guys learn how to get past the fake reality that all the propaganda and media etc. lead you to believe, you'll never be able to get a grip on reality and you'll be stuck in this narrow-minded way of thinking. I'm sorry that 9/11 was staged but the quicker people wake up to the truth the quicker we can get rid of the power structure and the politicians who are responsible for this.

It's sad that you are so confused that you are unable to see how absolutely confused your thinking is here. Taking a moment to stand aside of your scattered and unrelated mental mayhem, what does any of this have to do with 9/11? If you think that 9/11 was staged as you indicate, you then should start producing the evidence to support you claim. That is what I have challenged you to do page after page after page. It's something you fail to do because you have no evidence.

It makes it kind of hard for me to take the arguments seriously because even though you guys seem to be smart people, at some point you've become over-confident in yourselves when it comes to learning important things and expanding your minds. Don't get me wrong you're all smart, but it's not all about things like being smart or having a lot of money. You guys have given into a lot of corruption that has affected society is really bad ways and is only getting worse.

Really, such silliness. You are not arguing for any type of learning here. What you want is blind followers for your paranoid cause. Kamuix, if you want to offer something that people can learn from, start providing the evidence that I have challenged you to provide: actual verifiable, corroborating data and facts that can be examined by everyone. Your psychosis is not evidence and certainly not "truth."

In the end, all I can do is help wake people up to the truth. And I'm never asking you to take my word for it. All I'm asking is that you be open-minded and do your own research before buying into the governments/corporations propaganda.

You are in fact asking people to take your word for it. If you are claiming to possess the truth in a matter where evidence is demanded, then you have a moral responsibility to produce that evidence in order to support you claim. Otherwise you can make no claims for truth, and you have no grounds to request that others accept what you say. The onus is on you to deliver actual, verifiable information that can be examined and tested. Get to it Kamuix. Start proving the veracity of your claims.

 

[Kamuix]

38 Yes, 86 No, and 2,000 Active members who thought the question was too dumb to bother with.

I'm so convinced that you're aware of what's going on politically considering that all you can do is come in and use sarcasm as a defense against having to discuss something that you obviously know nothing about.

Stop with the facts. Kamuix doesn't like facts. Because facts aren't facts. They are all part of the propoganda machine. Unless they are facts from his trusted YouTube sources. Or something.

No i don't like facts even though I've been the only one actually discussing something and I happen to be someone who researches things with an open-mind rather then believing everything the establishment tells me.

Obviously it has fooled you Kamuix because I am not making an argument; I'm challenging you to produce to credible, verifiable corroborative evidence to support your claims of a government conspiracy. There's nothing at all narrow about this. The request is pretty straight up. It's you who has failed to to support your assertions Kamuix. I've merely stated what you have finally admitted to: you have no evidence. You only have an unsupported opinion. Why don't you admit this once and for all?

I don't know why I have to tell you this again but what exactly is evidence to you? 1200 architects and engineers coming out against the 9/11 staged attack isn't enough? The government being caught staging little attacks to further their agenda to justify taking away our rights? I could go on forever, but like I said:

Your narrow minded and manipulative way of arguing isn't fooling anyone anymore...

Once again, operating without any supporting evidence leaves you looking foolish Kamuix. What is funny is watching your weak attempts at trying to divert attention away from your failure to provide evidence to back up your claims. I think that deep down you are terrified that you have nothing to stand on. I think that deep down you know you have a problem with that rampant paranoia of yours. I have no evidence for these beliefs, but I can post them.

Haha yes deep down I'm scared. I'm scared that because people like you everywhere are buying into government propaganda and are literally being lead by a system that's collapsing. Don't you fucking get it? We're losing all of our constitutional rights, jobs are constantly being lost, big corrupt corporations are everywhere and growing while small businesses are being run out, the middle class is being pushed into the lower class while people are becoming poorer and poorer, gasoline and other costs are going up and the cost of living is going up, illegal unconstitutional wars are being expanded and the value of our dollar is going down. And people like you aren't helping because you can't even have a discussion without manipulating the conversation in every way possible to try and make me look crazy and the only reason why people are on your side is because it's popular to buy into everything the system tells you rather then having an open mind or to just have a balanced discussion.

Remember when you told me I didn't know what the sub-conscious mind was and told me to define it so I did then I asked you to define it and you couldn't answer the simple fucking question? I've answered every questions you've asked me but you refuse to answer any question I ask you and you try and make me look crazy by saying the same thing over and over which is that I have no evidence. And you attack me over stupid irrelevant shit that has nothing to do with the discussion.

You quote me as if to respond to each of my points to make it appear as if you're have a discussion but you never address the point properly all you do is say the same stupid shit over and over again.

 

[Kamuix]

Seriously guys, I know I seemed a little angry but I was like you guys just a few years back and throughout elementary school and high school I believed everything they told me, I believed that we were attacked by terrorists on 9/11 and I thought that the only way to be successful was to go to college but honestly their are soo many lies that we're being taught in school it's unbelievable.

I know it's hard to accept when you first look into this stuff because honestly no one wants to believe that these big corporations have been lying to us for political gain but honestly it's because of denial that we're still in this situation. Honestly I've been in your shoes and I went though the whole denial stage for a bit a couple years back but trust me you'll thank yourself when you wake up to the truth.

Honestly here are the best documentaries:

Loose change, pretty much goes through all the evidence on staged 9/11 attack and trust me you have to actually sit back and watch the whole thing with an open mind to really see the reality of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28QukKjwLtI

The Obama deception which explains how big corporations paid for obamas campaign which is one of the most deceiving things in history: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw

The college conspiracy which explains how we're pretty much brainwashed through school that in order to be successful you have to go to college: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpZtX32sKVE

How weed won the west which explains the fraudulent war on drugs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YHZco3bKT0

 

[toraerach]

I don't know why I have to tell you this again but what exactly is evidence to you? 1200 architects and engineers coming out against the 9/11 staged attack isn't enough? The government being caught staging little attacks to further their agenda to justify taking away our rights?

Just because you're an architect or an engineer does not mean you're a good architect or engineer or that you have the expertise to dissect the collapse of buildings, which by their very structure are unique in the history of building collapse.

As for the "little attacks" - care to list any of them? There certainly have been false flag attacks carried out by governments in the past, but they rarely stay secrets for long especially in countries that respect the freedom of expression (the Soviet Union being a different beast where the creators of Loose Change-like material would be sent to the gulag, if not subjected to a worse fate).

The corporatization of government and the threat of governments trampling on the rights of their own citizens are legitimate issues, but propagating wild conspiracies as proof of this lessens the credibility of legitimate criticisms and could derail legitimate attempts at holding governments and corporations accountable. For example, instead of demanding to know why the Americans killed bin Laden instead of putting him behind bars like the equally infamous/dangerous Ratko Mladic, a good chunk of the population is buying this nonsense about the veracity of his death, if he ever really existed, etc.

There are literally millions of credible resources out there that you can fall back upon to fight the erosion of civil rights. Why turn to profit-driven conspiracy peddlers? Who are apparently now preaching the evils of higher education (surprise!).

I mean, do you not see the irony in attacking the greed of corporations and governments via the bloated, and profitable, industry of pseudoscientific propaganda that preys on the fears and paranoia of societies coming to terms with massive traumatic events?

 

[Kamuix]

Just because you're an architect or an engineer does not mean you're a good architect or engineer or that you have the expertise to dissect the collapse of buildings, which by their very structure are unique in the history of building collapse.

Ok but come on over 1200 architects or engineers are you really going to try and shrug that off as "Oh it doesn't mean they're good ones" to try and avoid looking into it before believing what the general establishment tells you? Seriously.. I'm not even offering that as proof of any kind or trying to make you believe that 9/11 was an inside job based on that, all I'm doing is trying to get an ounce of open-mindedness out of you guys.

As for the "little attacks" - care to list any of them? There certainly have been false flag attacks carried out by governments in the past, but they rarely stay secrets for long especially in countries that respect the freedom of expression (the Soviet Union being a different beast where the creators of Loose Change-like material would be sent to the gulag, if not subjected to a worse fate).

Sure, first there's what they call the 'underwear bomber' of december 2009 where an alleged hijacker tried to blow up a plane that was headed to Detroit, right after the incident the department of homeland security came out and tried to use it to justify putting the naked body scanners into airports in the US. A large group of people that were on that plane came out against the official story saying that they witnessed a sharp dressed man help the guy onto the plane. By the way the official story changed FIVE times throughout the aftermath of the incident. There's a whole story on it. Watch this media report: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoDqUyqsxgg&playnext=1&list=PL6CCDBC12303259F8

The corporatization of government and the threat of governments trampling on the rights of their own citizens are legitimate issues, but propagating wild conspiracies as proof of this lessens the credibility of legitimate criticisms and could derail legitimate attempts at holding governments and corporations accountable. For example, instead of demanding to know why the Americans killed bin Laden instead of putting him behind bars like the equally infamous/dangerous Ratko Mladic, a good chunk of the population is buying this nonsense about the veracity of his death, if he ever really existed, etc.

Fair enough, but remember all that what the majority of the population is going off of is what the US government has been telling us. But here's the problem, they have NO credibility for ever telling the truth because they've been caught lying over and over again if you actually look into it. The problem is the mainstream media only reports on the governments side of the story, it rarely covers things that have to do with government fraud because most of the media these days is bought and paid for by these corporations and they simply don't or rarely cover anything controversial. This is much to do with why society is so deceived. The Internet is one of the last things we have left that's not controlled by governments and/or corporations which is why it's the best place to actually get the real facts. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying I believe everything I read because I don't, but honestly I feel I have good judgement when it comes to what I research and seriously you'd be as surprised as I was when you actually get into it and realize what actually goes on in politics.

There are literally millions of credible resources out there that you can fall back upon to fight the erosion of civil rights. Why turn to profit-driven conspiracy peddlers? Who are apparently now preaching the evils of higher education (surprise!).

Sadly this isn't true and I think you've misjudged the whole conspiracy thing and honestly most of the profit-driven things are all promoted by the media because it keeps people distracted from real issues. I just think you need to look into it more before you judge things like Alex Jones as being profit-driven.

I mean, do you not see the irony in attacking the greed of corporations and governments via the bloated, and profitable, industry of pseudoscientific propaganda that preys on the fears and paranoia of societies coming to terms with massive traumatic events?

I understand what you mean, but common... seriously look into it more because if you actually think these big corporations are victims to us 'conspiracy theorists' attacking them for profit and attention and things like that? common.. I get what you're saying though, but you need to take a closer look at what our side of the story before you make that judgement don't you think?

But hey at-least you're actually having a discussion rather then shooting me down as being crazy and paranoid. See i've said it over and over again but all I was really asking for is an ounce of open-mindedness so we can actually discuss the topic rather then you guys just shooting me down completely unwilling to discuss it like GRISS over there who constantly just shoots me down with the same one liner and I've addressed him on so many things yet he just won't fucking talk about it as if to be in denial or having some sort of fear over talking about the issues. I mean if you're so confident that the governments version of the story is correct and that we aren't being deceived then why can't anyone discuss it?

 

[toraerach]

Ok but come on over 1200 architects or engineers are you really going to try and shrug that off as "Oh it doesn't mean they're good ones" to try and avoid looking into it before believing what the general establishment tells you? Seriously.. I'm not even offering that as proof of any kind or trying to make you believe that 9/11 was an inside job based on that, all I'm doing is trying to get an ounce of open-mindedness out of you guys.

I don't have time to reply to all of your points right now, but do you realize how many thousands (tens of thousands? hundreds of thousands?) of engineers and architects there are in the United States alone? And it's not just that they're not good architects/engineers, but that there are many fields of expertise within those professions. What does an architect who designs suburban tract housing know about the mechanics of skyscraper collapse?

 

[gristle]

Kamuix doesn't care about all those other architects or engineers. To him, they are all delusional, or brainwashed, or part of the conspiracy itself. Not that Kamuix actually provides a verifiable source for his supposed 1200 architects, nor does he bother to define what he calls the "general establishment." Vagueness, paranoia, unsupported claims, accusations of brainwashing and a pretense that he alone holds an open mind are his stock in trade. All of it is his big put-up to deflect the simple and self-evident fact that he can't provide any verifiable evidence whatsoever to support his conspiracy claims.

 

[Kamuix]

Can you get any more narrow minded?

EDIT: Seriously, have a mind, think for yourself, don't let others think for you. Have a heart, don't be judgmental, don't be stuck up, it's not worth it in the long run! people will connect with you better if you open up instead of being uptight and narrow minded.

 

[gristle]

How about some verifiable evidence Kamuix? You still haven't produced any. Instead, you've played another weak attempt at deflection.

 

[Kamuix]

But hey at-least he's actually having a discussion rather then shooting me down as being crazy and paranoid. See i've said it over and over again but all I was really asking for is an ounce of open-mindedness so we can actually discuss the topic rather then you guys just shooting me down completely unwilling to discuss it like GRISS over there who constantly just shoots me down with the same one liner and I've addressed him on so many things yet he just won't fucking talk about it as if to be in denial or having some sort of fear over talking about the issues. I mean if you're so confident that the governments version of the story is correct and that we aren't being deceived then why can't anyone discuss it?

 

[gristle]

See i've said it over and over again but all I was really asking for is an ounce of open-mindedness so we can actually discuss the topic rather then you guys just shooting me down completely unwilling to discuss it like GRISS over there who constantly just shoots me down with the same one liner and I've addressed him on so many things yet he just won't fucking talk about it as if to be in denial or having some sort of fear over talking about the issues. I mean if you're so confident that the governments version of the story is correct and that we aren't being deceived then why can't anyone discuss it?

Kamuix, you erroneously think that a sign of an open mind is any position that is in agreement with your own beliefs. That's nothing but an extremely limited and closed-minded point of view on your part. You fail to see this, even though it has been repeated to you over and over again.

Regarding what you claim to have addressed about what I am challenging you to produce - verifiable evidence to support your claims - you have not produced any such evidence. Nor have you clearly indicated that you have none. Moreover, you have not admitted that all you are going on about here is a mere opinion of yours that is not founded upon evidence, but based only on your personal suspicions that are not supported by any such evidence.

If you want to speak to actual issues Kamuix, produce the verifiable evidence that is required. Otherwise there is really nothing particularly interesting about discussing your paranoid musings. No one is here to listen to you satisfy your desires to air out your personal suspicions and fears.

 

[Kamuix]

Seriously guys, I know I seemed a little angry but I was like you guys just a few years back and throughout elementary school and high school I believed everything they told me, I believed that we were attacked by terrorists on 9/11 and I thought that the only way to be successful was to go to college but honestly their are soo many lies that we're being taught in school it's unbelievable.

I know it's hard to accept when you first look into this stuff because honestly no one wants to believe that these big corporations have been lying to us for political gain but honestly it's because of denial that we're still in this situation. Honestly I've been in your shoes and I went though the whole denial stage for a bit a couple years back but trust me you'll thank yourself when you wake up to the truth.

Honestly here are the best documentaries:

Loose change, pretty much goes through all the evidence on staged 9/11 attack and trust me you have to actually sit back and watch the whole thing with an open mind to really see the reality of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28QukKjwLtI

The Obama deception which explains how big corporations paid for obamas campaign which is one of the most deceiving things in history: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw

The college conspiracy which explains how we're pretty much brainwashed through school that in order to be successful you have to go to college: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpZtX32sKVE

How weed won the west which explains the fraudulent war on drugs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YHZco3bKT0

 

[PinkLucy]

Kamuix, you continue to miss the point. You insist on believing that only you have been open-minded enough to consider alternatives to information provided on mainstream media. Why can you not accept the fact that others have considered alternatives but have come to a different conclusion than you did? That, my friend, is being narrow-minded.

 

[gristle]

Seriously guys, I know I seemed a little angry but I was like you guys just a few years back and throughout elementary school and high school I believed everything they told me, I believed that we were attacked by terrorists on 9/11 and I thought that the only way to be successful was to go to college but honestly their are soo many lies that we're being taught in school it's unbelievable.

You really don't get it Kamuix. Your accusations about being brainwashed are all unfounded because you have not shown any verifiable evidence of brainwashing. You have not even bothered to provide any remote clinical definitions for what you are asserting (pointing yet again that you are an empty vessel when it comes to your big claims about your knowledge of psychology). Your complete incapacity to show actual proof of your claims is not an indicator that other people are in any way brainwashed. It is a clear indicator that you have no credible evidence whatsoever to support your claims of an active an on-going conspiracy. As typical, your line of thought shows a pervasive absence of logic and reason. In short, you merely believe but actually don't know. Worse, you can't distinguish the two. You continuously fail to admit this very key and obvious point. You are deluding yourself if you think others have not noticed this.

I really couldn't care less about your musings on what documentaries possess the same themes that you obsess over. The burden of proof is on you to actually show the credible and verifiable existence of a conspiracy. Mere allusions, questions and poorly-framed musings just isn't good enough. That is not evidence. You should have learned that in high school.

 

[Kamuix]

get your point i've even said over and over again that I get your point - You don't think i have evidence to support my claim - Fine.. I don't care I'm not here to provide the evidence you're looking for.

Why do you keep bringing things up we've already discussed? You're the one that leads this conversation in circles.

Same thing here remember I'm trying to get people to consider it because it's more then highly possible and to do more research for themselves. < Instead of addressing that, you just say the same thing over and over.

You address the same thing over and over and won't address anything else and we both know why. You have a one track mind and a very basic/easily conditioned mined as well, you're too far gone.



Here's the problem Grissie, all you've done is attack that I haven't shown you enough evidence to convince you that 9/11 is an inside job therefor you reject it completely. Not giving the idea a chance even though I've said that that's all I'm trying to do many times. Now you're become more aggressive in doing the same thing. A conspiracy cannot be proven to someone who has been successfully brainwashed and conditioned and has tunnel vision on this.

You've gone further to try and create the illusion that everything I've shown is complete nonsense, and you do that exact thing by saying "Hardly an illusion. You have offered nothing substantive whatsoever." And the pattern of failure continues etc.. Also you've attacked my spelling, called me lazy(which i am right now but my point remains valid), fearfulness, paranoia etc..

Every time you've quotes something i've said you make the same point but worded differently that I've happened to counteract at least 32 times. You're agenda is to make me look stupid. It has nothing to do with 9/11 anymore.

But hey at-least lesouris actually having a discussion rather then shooting me down as being crazy and paranoid. See i've said it over and over again but all I was really asking for is an ounce of open-mindedness so we can actually discuss the topic rather then you guys just shooting me down completely unwilling to discuss it like GRISS over there who constantly just shoots me down with the same one liner and I've addressed him on so many things yet he just won't fucking talk about it as if to be in denial or having some sort of fear over talking about the issues. I mean if you're so confident that the governments version of the story is correct and that we aren't being deceived then why can't anyone discuss it?