Natural Grass in the Rogers Centre/Possibility of a New Baseball Stadium in Toronto

[ChesterCopperpot]

TCF Bank Stadium in Minneapolis holds 50,805 - a few thousand less than the Rogers Centre. Granted TCF has been built to allow a future expansion which would up the capacity to 80k.

TCF Bank is only being used temporarily by the Minnesota Vikings for the 2014 and 2015 seasons until the new Vikings stadium is built.

 

[TOareaFan]

Soldier Field, (which will turn 91 this year) may be the oldest active stadium in the NFL, but it ain't the smallest! TCF Bank Stadium in Minneapolis holds 50,805 - a few thousand less than the Rogers Centre.
Granted TCF has been built to allow a future expansion which would up the capacity to 80k.

TCF Bank stadium is also a temporary home for the vikings while Viking Stadium is being constructed

oops.....not the only person that knew that apparently

 

[ChesterCopperpot]

For NFL football, you can build additional seats in the end zones, where currently on either side there's nothing. Not exactly ideal, but that would add a couple thousand seats, at least. You could also take out the hotel and add seats or boxes along that side.

Looking at these pictures here - I just don't see it without spending lots of $$$$$$$$$$$

Lower Bowl by Jack Landau, on Flickr


Bills T.O. by Jack Landau, on Flickr

 

[TOareaFan]

As I understand it, the reason the NFL has a minimum stadium size that they will approve is largely due to their comprehensive revenue sharing.....they want to make sure that all teams are contributing to the revenue pool on a +/- "fair" basis.

One of the goals, I believe, of the much maligned Rogers series ticket prices was to show the league that Toronto could support/absorb much higher ticket prices and that by charging those huge prices, the revenue generated by the smaller than league requirement Rogers Centre per game could exceed the revenues in much larger venues.

The hope was that a future bid for a NFL team would not be hampered by the smaller capacity of the stadium. With 55k (+/-) and a disproportionate amount of private boxes, game day revenue would be sufficient to allow a Toronto team to be a positive contribution to the revenue sharing pool and a Toronto team is feasible in a smaller venue.

It was not, just, a plan to gouge Toronto sports fans. It was, however, a plan that did not work.

 

[gweed123]

Looking at these pictures here - I just don't see it without spending lots of $$$$$$$$$$$

You may not be able to get a lot in, but you'll notice in those pictures that the end zone opposite the big screen has seating installed. If I'm not mistaken, those aren't in place for CFL games, due to the longer field.

As I understand it, the reason the NFL has a minimum stadium size that they will approve is largely due to their comprehensive revenue sharing.....they want to make sure that all teams are contributing to the revenue pool on a +/- "fair" basis.

One of the goals, I believe, of the much maligned Rogers series ticket prices was to show the league that Toronto could support/absorb much higher ticket prices and that by charging those huge prices, the revenue generated by the smaller than league requirement Rogers Centre per game could exceed the revenues in much larger venues.

The hope was that a future bid for a NFL team would not be hampered by the smaller capacity of the stadium. With 55k (+/-) and a disproportionate amount of private boxes, game day revenue would be sufficient to allow a Toronto team to be a positive contribution to the revenue sharing pool and a Toronto team is feasible in a smaller venue.

It was not, just, a plan to gouge Toronto sports fans. It was, however, a plan that did not work.

The high ticket prices were one of the reasons for the Bills in Toronto's failure, but I don't think it was the main one. The main one, IMO, was that Toronto didn't really consider the Bills as the "home team". There were just as many fans of the opposition in attendance. The Toronto market has already shown it's willing to pay absurd amount for a mediocre product (see: The Leafs). What was lacking from that Bills series was brand loyalty that in the minds of the fans justifies paying that amount.

 

[TOareaFan]

You may not be able to get a lot in, but you'll notice in those pictures that the end zone opposite the big screen has seating installed. If I'm not mistaken, those aren't in place for CFL games, due to the longer field.



The high ticket prices were one of the reasons for the Bills in Toronto's failure, but I don't think it was the main one. The main one, IMO, was that Toronto didn't really consider the Bills as the "home team". There were just as many fans of the opposition in attendance. The Toronto market has already shown it's willing to pay absurd amount for a mediocre product (see: The Leafs). What was lacking from that Bills series was brand loyalty that in the minds of the fans justifies paying that amount.

I don't think that the NFL would be oblivious to that....Rogers and the NFL would be less concerned with who the fans there were chearing for......but would be concerned that for every game there were empty seats (ranging from 3k - 15k) that weren't chearing for anyone ...and that the numbers of those empty seats increased each year.....even though as the series wore on prices were actually reduced.

 

[ehlow]

Dundas West & Bloor would obviously be a great location in terms of transit, but is there enough room there for a new stadium?

I always figured Downsview would be the place to build a new stadium since there's a lot of room and it's surrounded by industrial areas so there might be less resistance. Looking at it now on Google Maps though, there actually isn't that much room left unless it takes over the park or industrial areas to the north, or the airport.

 

[wopchop]

From the GTS thread:



Part of that I think is because of the lack of GO trains on anything except Lakeshore. By the time this new stadium would be built, the Georgetown South corridor would be carrying a huge volume of traffic from the entire western GTHA, with the exception of Lakeshore West traffic. Auto traffic could be an issue, but I think encouraging people to park at a transit station and take transit in (Kipling for example) could work. They could also work out a deal with the TTC and GO to make either of them free to and from the game when you present your ticket. Build it into the cost of every ticket as an incentive for people to use transit.

Still, Dundas West will never have the same transit advantage that Union Station does. Once all-day-two-way is on all of the GO lines, Georgetown South might be carrying a huge volume of traffic, but Union Station will still connects to ALL GO Lines, as well as the subway, future waterfront LRT/streetcars and the Union Pearson Express. Even with all of the transit convenience of going straight downtown to Union Station, people STILL drive in droves down the QEW, Gardner, and DVP to go to the ACC or Skydome. Any other location in the city, and even more people would choose to drive. That's just reality.

I get what you are saying about Dundas West, but IMO, something downtown is still more ideal.

 

[Translude15]

I don't think that the NFL would be oblivious to that....Rogers and the NFL would be less concerned with who the fans there were chearing for......but would be concerned that for every game there were empty seats (ranging from 3k - 15k) that weren't chearing for anyone ...and that the numbers of those empty seats increased each year.....even though as the series wore on prices were actually reduced.

I think it was the last game of the series that only drew something like 38,000 fans. I was invited to the game in 2012 but had to decline due to school obligations but by that point tickets were essentially being given away.

I remember reading somewhere that ~20% of all Bills season ticket holders are from Ontario and many of my friends who are Bills fans from the GTA really didn't embrace the whole series at all. I think attending a game at Orchard Park and comparing that game day experience to what the Rogers Centre offers as an NFL venue, combined with the initially higher price point soured a lot of true Bills fans from even bothering to attend as well.

 

[sixrings]

I thought there was talk by someone at Rogers (googled but couldn't find the article) that they could dig down to add more capacity at Rogers Centre. Between digging and taking out the hotel there could be an added 15000 seats. 70000 seats to me in a world where less and less people are attending games and the money is really being made with more and more TV revenue seems big enough. Personally I think the Skydome is too big to ever be a proper baseball venue but if it can be retrofitted even at 500 million for NFL then that's not a bad option.

 

[TOareaFan]

I think it was the last game of the series that only drew something like 38,000 fans.

Just under 39k......about 1,800 or so less than the previous season

I was invited to the game in 2012 but had to decline due to school obligations but by that point tickets were essentially being given away.

Yes....despite the already disappointing attendance figures....there was wide spread speculation/rumour/knowledge that the house was papered with free tickets in fairly substantial numbers.

I remember reading somewhere that ~20% of all Bills season ticket holders are from Ontario and many of my friends who are Bills fans from the GTA really didn't embrace the whole series at all. I think attending a game at Orchard Park and comparing that game day experience to what the Rogers Centre offers as an NFL venue, combined with the initially higher price point soured a lot of true Bills fans from even bothering to attend as well.

Yes, it is widely held that 20% of Bills tickets at Orchard Park are from the GTA....if that is so, there are roughly 15k GTA people at each Bills game.....I think the shocking thing to Rogers and the NFL was that they had difficulty (at any price) getting the stadium filled with that knowledge in hand.

Yes the experience is likely different in Toronto.....but, then again, it is likely quite different in London and they get over 80k for the exhibition games there....yes, Toronto is not London (and vice versa) but if you are talking about/considering locations for NFL games (or even teams) you have to consider those numbers in the equation.

 

[TOareaFan]

I thought there was talk by someone at Rogers (googled but couldn't find the article) that they could dig down to add more capacity at Rogers Centre. Between digging and taking out the hotel there could be an added 15000 seats. 70000 seats to me in a world where less and less people are attending games and the money is really being made with more and more TV revenue seems big enough. Personally I think the Skydome is too big to ever be a proper baseball venue but if it can be retrofitted even at 500 million for NFL then that's not a bad option.

mmm.......there are two levels of parking under the stadium......I guess you could dig down.....get rid of the parking...I guess....but since the exsting 55k seats are already in place at a fixed rake....what does that do to the sight lines of those seats?......what about the boxes (they have a lot of them and they are counted on to bring a lot of revneue) do they have any view whats-so-ever?

The hotel....yeah, I guess, you could buy the hotel back from whomever owns it now (it was severed off and sold long ago....before any of the subsequent sales of the actual stadium)....they might want a bit of a premium price for it though.

Yeah....you could do all that.....likely spend nearly as much (or more) than the cost of a new stadium and end up with something that is likely a bit sub-optimal.

 

[ChesterCopperpot]

Getting away from the suitability of the Rogers Centre for an NFL team - where at Bloor and Dundas are we talking about? The SE corner?

 

[sixrings]

mmm.......there are two levels of parking under the stadium......I guess you could dig down.....get rid of the parking...I guess....but since the exsting 55k seats are already in place at a fixed rake....what does that do to the sight lines of those seats?......what about the boxes (they have a lot of them and they are counted on to bring a lot of revneue) do they have any view whats-so-ever?

The hotel....yeah, I guess, you could buy the hotel back from whomever owns it now (it was severed off and sold long ago....before any of the subsequent sales of the actual stadium)....they might want a bit of a premium price for it though.

Yeah....you could do all that.....likely spend nearly as much (or more) than the cost of a new stadium and end up with something that is likely a bit sub-optimal.

Isn't a new stadium coming in at 1billion though. I can't see any digging or renovating costing that much and you wouldmaintain the site.

 

[TOareaFan]

Isn't a new stadium coming in at 1billion though. I can't see any digging or renovating costing that much and you wouldmaintain the site.

You think digging under an existing stadium would be much less than that? I am no engineer but I think you would have to do something to hold the whole thing up....no?....and, again, sightlines?