Natural Grass in the Rogers Centre/Possibility of a New Baseball Stadium in Toronto

[sixrings]

Quick google shows that average MLB baseball attendance is 30,514. Speaking as a former season ticket holder I will say it is painful being in a half empty stadium. The blue jays last year averaged 29,000 and has not averaged over 32,000 since 1995. I just have no clue why have all those extra seats? For the few times there may be a playoff game? If that's true why not just double the admission price and the team still makes equal profit. In the meantime I am sure the atmosphere significantly reduces the experience which makes people avoid the stadium.

 

[sixrings]

isn't a stadium often talked about as the future of the food terminal lands?

never heard that but I go to the food terminal twice a week for work and each time I think to myself at some point this thing is going to become a cashcow for condos or something else. A stadium here though would have very little access to transit. Sure there is the highway but the streets flowing from it are already crowded. If I were to choose a stadium location that was going to have more transit access or more car access I would always choose transit especially with the city becoming more and more urban with more and more transit users and less and less people driving.

 

[ehlow]

Can't forget the Barclays Center in Brooklyn!

I like the ACC a lot, but I have to say, I love the way Barclay's Center looks. It's cool that the NY Islanders are moving there too.

It seems like sports teams in general are moving from suburbs to downtowns or the main city. I think I read Golden State Warriors are moving to SF. Hopefully Ottawa Sens follows the trend as well.

 

[someMidTowner]

1. Toronto Islands?

2. Right where the Skydome is now? Have them play a month in MTL, month in Van, month on the East Coast, etc. for one/two seasons.

1. That almost sounds as insane as putting an airport on the Islands...oh wait....

2. Montreal lost their team for a reason. Even if we played a single exhibition game at The Big Owe, they would need English to be the primary language on signage to tap into the 99% Anglophone Blue Jays market. I doubt the language police would let that fly. Vancouver has the obvious time zone issues, and the MLB wouldn't want to step on Seattle's toes like that. I don't see any way the Jays could temporarily play outside of the GTHA without a name change. Pipe dream.

 

[TOareaFan]

Quick google shows that average MLB baseball attendance is 30,514. Speaking as a former season ticket holder I will say it is painful being in a half empty stadium. The blue jays last year averaged 29,000 and has not averaged over 32,000 since 1995. I just have no clue why have all those extra seats? For the few times there may be a playoff game? If that's true why not just double the admission price and the team still makes equal profit. In the meantime I am sure the atmosphere significantly reduces the experience which makes people avoid the stadium.

I doubt they would be interested in building a 30k stadium

http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance

Jays last year were 17th in MLB attendance.......albeit in the 3rd or 4th largest city in the majors (the largest without more than one team) and, arguably, the city who's economy was in the best shape. No one can really explain why attendance is so, relatively, "weak" but I am sure it is not what the owners or MLB would want (or plan for).

 

[TOareaFan]

1. That almost sounds as insane as putting an airport on the Islands...oh wait....

2. Montreal lost their team for a reason. Even if we played a single exhibition game at The Big Owe, they would need English to be the primary language on signage to tap into the 99% Anglophone Blue Jays market. I doubt the language police would let that fly. Vancouver has the obvious time zone issues, and the MLB wouldn't want to step on Seattle's toes like that. I don't see any way the Jays could temporarily play outside of the GTHA without a name change. Pipe dream.

how did they handle the language thing last year?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...rns-before-46121-in-montreal/article17728181/

 

[sixrings]

I doubt they would be interested in building a 30k stadium

http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance

Jays last year were 17th in MLB attendance.......albeit in the 3rd or 4th largest city in the majors (the largest without more than one team) and, arguably, the city who's economy was in the best shape. No one can really explain why attendance is so, relatively, "weak" but I am sure it is not what the owners or MLB would want (or plan for).

Id rather have a full 30,000 stadium and if you know there is more demand you simply up the prices..,Now days they manipulate ticket prices all the time with premium games and what not. If I thought 40,000 people wanted to come I would simply up the price till 10,000k dropped out. There is something to say about always having a full stadium and always having people wanting in. Its not good having a stadium where on game day people can walk up and buy a ticket. Id want to create a supply and demand system.

I think the Dundas West location would be better suited than the LCBO land because right now there is a subway there and at least a go line and a ARL. The LCBO land may be close to downtown but that would be a hike for a lot of transit riders.

 

[TOareaFan]

Id rather have a full 30,000 stadium and if you know there is more demand you simply up the prices..,Now days they manipulate ticket prices all the time with premium games and what not. If I thought 40,000 people wanted to come I would simply up the price till 10,000k dropped out. There is something to say about always having a full stadium and always having people wanting in. Its not good having a stadium where on game day people can walk up and buy a ticket. Id want to create a supply and demand system.

I think the Dundas West location would be better suited than the LCBO land because right now there is a subway there and at least a go line and a ARL. The LCBO land may be close to downtown but that would be a hike for a lot of transit riders.

see something new every day......a sports fan advocating for higher prices

Kidding aside, though, that Jays attendance averaging 29k is quite misleading if you were going to build for a "typical" crowd. If you look behind that average number you will find a very wide variance in the actual attendances and something tells me the median would be lower than the average.....so even your hypothetical 30k stadium would have a lot of empties on a lot of nights....think they got as low as 13k last year

 

[someMidTowner]

how did they handle the language thing last year?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...rns-before-46121-in-montreal/article17728181/

Didn't know about that. Just going to stick this foot back in my mouth. Though it would work for a one-time event, I can't see it being something that would work for any extended period of time. I can imagine advertisers who have deals with the Jays wouldn't be too happy.

 

[junior43]

1. That almost sounds as insane as putting an airport on the Islands...oh wait....

2. Montreal lost their team for a reason. Even if we played a single exhibition game at The Big Owe, they would need English to be the primary language on signage to tap into the 99% Anglophone Blue Jays market. I doubt the language police would let that fly. Vancouver has the obvious time zone issues, and the MLB wouldn't want to step on Seattle's toes like that. I don't see any way the Jays could temporarily play outside of the GTHA without a name change. Pipe dream.

I did preface it with stating they were crazy ideas.

And ya, the islands would be crazy, but if Billy Bishop were to close and condos were built, then a stadium there isn't as crazy. But I'd be totally against that anyways. It should be Billy Bishop or parkland, that's it.

 

[gweed123]

Interesting discussion here. Yes, Barclay's Center is another great example of an "urban" stadium project built recently. NIMBYism could be a negative factor towards the Dundas West site, however I would think that the Bloor West BIA (or whatever group happens to cover that area, not sure how far their territory actually extends) would be quite keen on the project, seeing as how it would give a direct boost to the restaurants and bars along Bloor, and also along Roncesvalles. This would also help disperse crowds before and after the game, since people would go for dinner before or for drinks after.

As for stadium size, here's some comparisons of "Neo Classical" stadiums:
Camden Yards (Baltimore): 45,971 (plus standing room)
PNC Park (Pittsburgh): 38,362
Target Field (Minneapolis): 39,021
Nationals Park (Washington): 41,418
Petco Park (San Diego): 42,302
AT&T Park (San Francisco): 41,915

So it looks like the sweet spot for modern MLB parks is between 38,000 and 42,000, with optional areas for standing room for big events like playoff games. If there ends up being a space constraint in left field due to the rail tracks, they could conceivably make a pretty steep "standing room section" above the left field wall, similar to the Green Monster in Boston, only without the seats. Another example of this is the Western Metal Supply Co. building that was incorporated into Petco Park. It features several levels of vertical standing room decks. This would add extra capacity for big games, but would keep the stadium feeling full for regular weeknight games.

 

[TOareaFan]

Didn't know about that. Just going to stick this foot back in my mouth. Though it would work for a one-time event, I can't see it being something that would work for any extended period of time. I can imagine advertisers who have deals with the Jays wouldn't be too happy.

I think it is contextual.....there is a growing swell of "bring MLB back to Montreal" types....so any MLB games played there during this time (until it happens or it is ruled out) will do very well at the gate. After last year's two games drew almost 100k....I think they plan to go back every year.

 

[TOareaFan]

Interesting discussion here. Yes, Barclay's Center is another great example of an "urban" stadium project built recently. NIMBYism could be a negative factor towards the Dundas West site, however I would think that the Bloor West BIA (or whatever group happens to cover that area, not sure how far their territory actually extends) would be quite keen on the project, seeing as how it would give a direct boost to the restaurants and bars along Bloor, and also along Roncesvalles. This would also help disperse crowds before and after the game, since people would go for dinner before or for drinks after.

As for stadium size, here's some comparisons of "Neo Classical" stadiums:
Camden Yards (Baltimore): 45,971 (plus standing room)
PNC Park (Pittsburgh): 38,362
Target Field (Minneapolis): 39,021
Nationals Park (Washington): 41,418
Petco Park (San Diego): 42,302
AT&T Park (San Francisco): 41,915

So it looks like the sweet spot for modern MLB parks is between 38,000 and 42,000, with optional areas for standing room for big events like playoff games. If there ends up being a space constraint in left field due to the rail tracks, they could conceivably make a pretty steep "standing room section" above the left field wall, similar to the Green Monster in Boston, only without the seats. Another example of this is the Western Metal Supply Co. building that was incorporated into Petco Park. It features several levels of vertical standing room decks. This would add extra capacity for big games, but would keep the stadium feeling full for regular weeknight games.

any reason you left out the ball park at Arlington (49k) or the new yankee stadium (50k) ? Those are newer, classically designed, stadia in cities/markets more closely resembling our market size

 

[junior43]

I think it is contextual.....there is a growing swell of "bring MLB back to Montreal" types....so any MLB games played there during this time (until it happens or it is ruled out) will do very well at the gate. After last year's two games drew almost 100k....I think they plan to go back every year.

Yup - even the Mayor is a baseball fan - see the link. Maybe we 'rent' them the Jays for a couple years while we redo the dome. that way they can prove to MLB they're still a baseball town. Still a very big stretch, I know.

http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/montreal-mayor-reveals-pitch-to-bring-back-baseball

 

[gweed123]

any reason you left out the ball park at Arlington (49k) or the new yankee stadium (50k) ?

Arlington I left off the list because it's in more of a suburban area, as opposed to the other ballparks on the list which are all in very urban areas. But yes, I guess I did forget Yankee Stadium.