London Rapid Transit (In-Design)

[Forgotten]

London City Council has just unanimously passed the LRT/BRT rapid transit plan and now is forwarding an official request for money to Queen's Park.

London needs to put up their own money before going to Queen's Park hand cap and all making demands for cash. It would be unfair for the people in the rest of Ontario to be paying for this when London has no skin in the game. The rest of the province should not (and will not) stand for this kind of freeloading.

 

[TOareaFan]

London needs to put up their own money before going to Queen's Park hand cap and all making demands for cash. It would be unfair for the people in the rest of Ontario to be paying for this when London has no skin in the game. The rest of the province should not (and will not) stand for this kind of freeloading.

they are not the first municipality to come up with a plan that is dependant on provincial funding....they won't be the last and we have stood for it before....no?

 

[crs1026]

London needs to put up their own money before going to Queen's Park hand cap and all making demands for cash. It would be unfair for the people in the rest of Ontario to be paying for this when London has no skin in the game. The rest of the province should not (and will not) stand for this kind of freeloading.

In a province where everything is negotiable, and where transit is politicised, there's never harm in asking. Why should London Council be the bad guy?

Hopefully there is a consistent, level playing field in how the Province responds to the request.

- Paul

 

[dowlingm]

They refuse to view improved transit as a LRT or nothing scheme like Miller.

BRT initiatives were part of the Transit City Bus Plan. Exactly how many major initiatives do you think a city the size of Toronto can pull off in one mayoralty?

 

[gweed123]

London needs to put up their own money before going to Queen's Park hand cap and all making demands for cash. It would be unfair for the people in the rest of Ontario to be paying for this when London has no skin in the game. The rest of the province should not (and will not) stand for this kind of freeloading.

You're absolutely right. When is Toronto putting up cash for Finch, Sheppard, and Eglinton?

 

[ssiguy2]

^ Exactly.

You can also add Brampton, Mississauga, and Hamilton to that list despite London having higher per-capita ridership than any of them.

Also curious, when is Toronto or any of the cities in the Golden Horseshoe going to be sending Queen's Park a cheque for their portion of GO expansion? Of course Toronto will want to spend an extra couple cheques to pay for their portion of the UPX and all the new GO stations and electrification.

As soon as Toronto shots off those cheques then they can bitch but until such a time, London should be treated fairly and get every single cent it's asking for.

 

[dowlingm]

The thing about wholly funded Metrolinx projects is that from an accounting standpoint the Province owns the asset. In the traditional co-funding model, the Province (and/or Feds) granted funds to a City asset (e.g. Spadina subway). It would be interesting to see the reaction from municipalities to Provincial suggestion that cities give money to IO built/provinically owned transit projects.

 

[dowlingm]

Also curious, when is Toronto or any of the cities in the Golden Horseshoe going to be sending Queen's Park a cheque for their portion of GO expansion? Of course Toronto will want to spend an extra couple cheques to pay for their portion of the UPX and all the new GO stations and electrification.

As soon as Toronto shots off those cheques then they can bitch but until such a time, London should be treated fairly and get every single cent it's asking for.

You have a special talent for being wrong, and offensively so. UPX is a project in which Toronto had no say in design, construction or operation. Neither is RER. However, when Council members did venture to suggest UPX should stop in this place or that I was among those who said - "you don't pay, you don't say". Toronto Council not having their fingers in it from a CanCon point of view also meant Metrolinx could do a quickie deal with Sonoma-Marin for DMU options without worrying about whether they might see railcars come down the CPR before the Pan Am Games happened.

When John Tory suggested SmartTrack (misguided as many aspects of the project are) GO said "sure, but you're gonna contribute" and Toronto is slated to do so. In fact (see my comment at #37 above) I expect some bumps when Councillors realise that for maybe a different livery Toronto is handing over a big bag of cash for a project which for the most part Queens Park was proposing to do anyway.

 

[ssiguy2]

Toronto, {Finch, Sheppard, and super expensive Eglinton}, Hamilton, Mississauga, and Brampton are all getting their LRTs paid for 100% so why shouldn't London?

London is arguably the 3rd most important city in the province and is a major regional, governmental, entertainment, academic, health, and transportation centre. London is also the fastest growing city in the SW, will be a stop on the London-Toronto HSR and potential extensions to Windsor and Mon/QC, is home to the forth busiest VIA station in the country, and has much higher per-capita transit ridership than Ham/Miss or Bram.

If Queen's Park has to cut back it should be those 3 cities who get their LRT funding cut first. Also remember that those 3 have already received mega-bucks in GO expansion and in Brampton and Mississauga's case BRT as well.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I agree that London should have the same deal as the rest of Ontario, but I wouldn't go far as to say it is as much of a priority to Queen's Park as those other transit projects. It would be the first to go if there are budget cuts / doesn't have shovels in the ground by next election cycle.

There are not as many ridings in contention in London as there are in the 905, for starters.

 

[muller877]

I agree that London should have the same deal as the rest of Ontario, but I wouldn't go far as to say it is as much of a priority to Queen's Park as those other transit projects. It would be the first to go if there are budget cuts / doesn't have shovels in the ground by next election cycle.

There are not as many ridings in contention in London as there are in the 905, for starters.

The problem (and potential benefit) for London with LRT is that it is very sprawling (even compared to Kitchener). There is not one street that really dominates with density.

Dundas St and the core were really crappy for 20+ years and it has taken 10 years for it to slowly regenerate.

The advantages London has include the 2 major schools. Fanshawe and UWO both have a huge population that use the bus service and the urban core that was in decline now has a lot of lower paying call centre type jobs. London also has 2 huge construction firms (Sifton and EllisDon). Sifton in particular is starting to build mixed-use high-density communities within London.

London also has very good agricultural land surrounding it that needs to be preserved (much better than almost anywhere in the GTA). With a good transit plan AND encouraging density by transit stops London could very easily support transit in the long term.

But right now (unlike Kitchener or Hamilton) it is very hard to find the density that supports LRT. BRT is probably the way to go (but it's not shiny enough for the politicians).

 

[44 North]

I spend a lot of time in London, and think this is a great idea that they should pursue. It's a real city, and their downtown can be quite thronging with non-auto activity for much of the day. Less than Ottawa or Toronto, naturally. But IMO more than Mississauga and KW (not sure about Hamilton because I've rarely been there). Perhaps it's more of an illusion because of their downtown's narrow streets and small blocks, but I don't think so. They also have frequent transit service that's actually used quite well.

But I personally don't believe the Prov will commit to much, seeing that the election is a long ways away. And even if they did commit, they'd probably rescind it right after election night. But I think the real problem would be London itself. They've expanded their boundaries so far that much of their outer wards are damn-near rural, and sprawled so much that a good portion of the city is hardcore suburban. Once the paint has dried on their plans, and people/politicians begin to realize the magnitude of what's proposed, it's quite possible the plan's real worst enemy could be London itself.

And I guess another thing is the growth elsewhere in the Prov (i.e the GTHA) that arguably could be seen as a greater priority. London is to add 80k people by 2031. That's a lot. But put in perspective with the GTHA and the obscene growth and sprawl we're seeing here, London might be viewed as small potatoes. Either way, I think London should definitely continue with their plan and still ask the Prov for their fair share of infrastructure funding.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Guess London, Ontario will use a different word, in their rapid transit lines...

 

[Haljackey]

How about

A small portion of the proposed LRT is a subway on Richmond Street to go under the CN rail line and possibly run all the way to Oxford Street.

Surely not a fair comparison to London U.K's RT system, but interesting nonetheless

 

[44 North]

This is completely unrelated to the thread, but perhaps it's interesting to discuss to some. I've talked about it with a couple people from SW Ontario/London, but I really think London should change its name - particularly if it wants to be taken seriously or be seen as a real city. I'm not sure about this, but I don't think there are any large cities that share a name. Toronto was once known as York, but decided to be realistic and change its name (while simultaneously adopting the area's FN heritage - similar to many other cities on the continent). New York has the "new" prefix, so obviously it can't be confused with York, England. So perhaps London should do something similar: e.g New London, or maybe a First Nations name. It's not like we're talking about some one horse town like Paris, Ontario. London's metro area will reach half a million soon enough. Having two Londons is just ridiculous.