High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto

[MrsNesbitt]

Frankly, the HSR as a sort of GO express service in conjunction with AD2W service for milk-run all-stop trains (serving places like Guelph), electrification, and EMUs, is a far better way to run the system than a wholly new service duplicating parts of the GO line and potentially leaving others (Guelph again for example) left in the lurch. Also for branding purposes. GO REX, after all. Make a stylized T-Rex logo and it'll look wonderful.

 

[dunkalunk]

On sale at the ROM gift shop.

 

[royalrivers]

I should note, that this is the exact same map I posted earlier and is by no means any official plan. Is there anything else to back this up? In any case, i'm certainly glad it looks like an official enough

Yes same map but is accurate to the bits and pieces mentioned in the Guelph Tribune (i.e Edinburgh and Silvercreek Overpasses) and City of Guelph Transportation Master Plan (forget page number but has rough outline of side street closures)

 

[nfitz]

Murray already said the HSR is not stopping in Brampton.

Murray has demonstrated time and time again, that he is quite willing to keep talking, long after his script has ended and provide answers that aren't based in reality.

London-Toronto trains currently on that line stop in Brampton. There's no reason to think that won't change, after minor signalling, track, and crossing improvements that would allow the same trains that currently operate at 160 km/hr elsewhere, to operate at 200 km/hr.

Personally, I have a hard time imagining them electrifying west of Kitchener, so I'd imagine we are talking 200 km/hr diesel trains with slower acceleration.

 

[nfitz]

Double Tracking Toronto to Guelph Junction was talked about in Montreal Gazette on July 2, 1913

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=CEYhAAAAIBAJ&sjid=RX8FAAAAIBAJ&pg=6743,448167

Interesting find! That's the Milton line though, not the Kitchener line. It still is double-tracked from Toronto to Guelph Junction (just southwest of 401 and Guelph Line).

 

[Haljackey]

High Speed Rail should have very few stations on the route to maximize the speed at which the trains can travel at. Ideally, you'd want a stop every 150-200km, so Kitchener's stop could be deemed too close. These distances are typical throughout Europe, but there are some exceptions.

Adding more and more stops, like a station in Brampton just slows down the trains to the point where the 'high speed' in high speed rail doesn't really exist.

This line is intended to be inter-regional. It is not intended to serve several cities in the Toronto region. That is what GO is for (part of Metrolinx which serves the greater golden horseshoe region).

-----

Edit:

If the full line from Windsor-Quebec City was built, I'd only see a few stations on the line.
-Windsor
-Chatham (maybe, too close to Windsor and London)
-London
-Kitchener (maybe, too close to London and Toronto)
-Toronto Airport
-Toronto
-Kingston
-Ottawa, maybe a stop at Ottawa airport too
-Montreal Airport
-Montreal
-Trois Rivieres
-Quebec City

 

[TOareaFan]

^ that makes perfect academic sense....but don't you have to give some consideration to where people are?

In other words, is the point to move trains really fast or to move people?

 

[newearthling]

^ that makes perfect academic sense....but don't you have to give some consideration to where people are?

In other words, is the point to move trains really fast or to move people?

Couldn't you take the HSR, get off at the closest station and then take another train to your actual destination? Eg: get off at Waterloo, and grab another train to Guelph.
This is supposing, of course, that we have a great regional rail network, which we don't have yet.

 

[ShonTron]

High Speed Rail should have very few stations on the route to maximize the speed at which the trains can travel at. Ideally, you'd want a stop every 150-200km, so Kitchener's stop could be deemed too close. These distances are typical throughout Europe, but there are some exceptions.

Adding more and more stops, like a station in Brampton just slows down the trains to the point where the 'high speed' in high speed rail doesn't really exist.

Wait, Trois-Rivières (CMA: 151,773), but perhaps not Kitchener-Waterloo (CMA:477,160)?

Yep, there seems to be a bit too much fixation on moving trains quickly as opposed to moving people quickly.

Since any "high-speed rail" will likely have to pass through Brampton (unless the 407 rail corridor is ever built, which would actually be better suited to frieght anyway), speeds will likely be limited to whatever CN allows, there's probably no harm in stopping there, especially with LRT connections to Mississauga City Centre and BRT connections to York Region.

We're not going to have 300 km/h high-speed electrified rail to London (as great as it sounds). If the province goes ahead, it's much more likely going to be at best 125MPH (200km/h) diesel train consists, but more likely US "higher speed rail", meaning max speeds of 110MPH (175 km/h), which I think is fine and actually well suited to Toronto-Kitchener service.

In this context, Brampton makes so much sense because of the regional connections available there.

The focus really needs to be fixing the PSO in Guelph (which probably means knocking down a few old houses on Kent Street) and upgrading the track to 110-125 MPH operation, especially between Georgetown and Kitchener on the CN/GEXR Guelph Sub (and Kitchener-London via Stratford if extended to London). It might mean a new alignment around Limehouse/Acton, but not necessarily so.

The stations should be:
Union
Pearson-Woodbine
Brampton
Guelph
Kitchener
(Stratford) - a relatively small city; it'd rely heavily on tourism and should have joint-ticketed bus or van connections to midwestern Ontario towns like Seaforth-Clinton-Goderich, St. Marys, Listowel-Hanover, etc.
London

 

[TOareaFan]

Couldn't you take the HSR, get off at the closest station and then take another train to your actual destination? Eg: get off at Waterloo, and grab another train to Guelph.
This is supposing, of course, that we have a great regional rail network, which we don't have yet.

Yes....that is how it is typically done on rail systems that I have experienced. If you live in one of the smaller centres and are trying to get to a larger one you use a more local system to connect to the faster regional system. It is not, from my experience (but I have asked for examples) typical that the system bypass large areas and expect those people to do that transfer. If I can use font sizes (larger font larger population) to explain:

If you had a system of

L---------K--------B---------T

It would make sense to bypass the B and expect those people to connect via a different route to that high speed rail.

What we have though is


L---------K--------B---------T

In the case we are discussing, it is made even worse because anyone travelling from B to L seemingly has to backtrack to T to make the trip....that makes no sense and will, again, push people away from the service and into their cars.

Again, I should point out that I agree that for B - T trips the HSR probably does not make sense...the time pick up relative to the extra cost when there sounds like there will be lots of local service probably does not tempt too many riders (caveat...if the HSR does go into the aiprort but the GO does not then you pick up riders there) but for B-K trips or B-L trips it seems rather counter-intuitive to leave so many potential riders standing on the platform waving at the trains as they go by.

EDIT- in picking my font sizes I am using K as opposed to KW simply because I don't have enough knowledge to know if the W people will actually travel to K to avail themselves of the service....similarly, the B could just as easy be a BM if the theory is that LRT will deliver people easily and efficiently to the HSR....the only relative change if it went to KW and BM would the size of L versus K.

 

[JasonParis]

If the full line from Windsor-Quebec City was built, I'd only see a few stations on the line.
-Windsor
-Chatham (maybe, too close to Windsor and London)
-London
-Kitchener (maybe, too close to London and Toronto)
-Toronto Airport
-Toronto
-Kingston
-Ottawa, maybe a stop at Ottawa airport too
-Montreal Airport
-Montreal
-Trois Rivieres
-Quebec City

I'd think you'd have a GTA East stop as well, likely Oshawa.

 

[BMO]

Yes....that is how it is typically done on rail systems that I have experienced. If you live in one of the smaller centres and are trying to get to a larger one you use a more local system to connect to the faster regional system. It is not, from my experience (but I have asked for examples) typical that the system bypass large areas and expect those people to do that transfer. If I can use font sizes (larger font larger population) to explain:

If you had a system of

L---------K--------B---------T

It would make sense to bypass the B and expect those people to connect via a different route to that high speed rail.

What we have though is


L---------K--------B---------T

In the case we are discussing, it is made even worse because anyone travelling from B to L seemingly has to backtrack to T to make the trip....that makes no sense and will, again, push people away from the service and into their cars.

Again, I should point out that I agree that for B - T trips the HSR probably does not make sense...the time pick up relative to the extra cost when there sounds like there will be lots of local service probably does not tempt too many riders (caveat...if the HSR does go into the aiprort but the GO does not then you pick up riders there) but for B-K trips or B-L trips it seems rather counter-intuitive to leave so many potential riders standing on the platform waving at the trains as they go by.

EDIT- in picking my font sizes I am using K as opposed to KW simply because I don't have enough knowledge to know if the W people will actually travel to K to avail themselves of the service....similarly, the B could just as easy be a BM if the theory is that LRT will deliver people easily and efficiently to the HSR....the only relative change if it went to KW and BM would the size of L versus K.

This is exactly how it should work. After visiting the Netherlands I've fully embraced the different levels of commuter rail that have their won specific functions and work as a team. Local route funnel people to major transfer points where they can transfer to express/long-distance trains. Likewise, the same thing happens in revers. Even if people have to double back a few stops the whole system makes much more sense and doesn't try to be everything to everyone with one line.

In the Netherlands they even had three levels of commuter train, Local, Mid-express and Long-distance/express. The mid-express trains would stop at cities equivalent to Brampton, Vaughan, Missisauga, etc, whereas the Long-Distance/express trains would only stop at the major centres.

 

[LNahid2000]

EDIT- in picking my font sizes I am using K as opposed to KW simply because I don't have enough knowledge to know if the W people will actually travel to K to avail themselves of the service....similarly, the B could just as easy be a BM if the theory is that LRT will deliver people easily and efficiently to the HSR....the only relative change if it went to KW and BM would the size of L versus K.

You clearly don't know much about KW. Downtown Kitchener and Downtown Waterloo are only a 30 minute walk apart. It's probably easier for most people in Waterloo to get to Kitchener VIA Station than for most people in Brampton to get to Brampton GO. Not a fair comparison at all.

 

[TOareaFan]

You clearly don't know much about KW. Downtown Kitchener and Downtown Waterloo are only a 30 minute walk apart. It's probably easier for most people in Waterloo to get to Kitchener VIA Station than for most people in Brampton to get to Brampton GO. Not a fair comparison at all.

As I said, it would not change the Font size relationship between the K and B (population of Brampton is already bigger than the population of KW) just the relationship between the L and K(W) and since no one seems to be debating the L or K stops it was not particularly relevant to the discussion I was involved in.

As for the bolded part, you are just repeating something from my own statement which you quoted...no?

 

[innsertnamehere]

The main difference is that K-W is its own metro while Brampton is some arbitrary municipal border in the Toronto metro.