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High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto

Let the politics begin....."we need to tear down a few houses the historic core you are trying to develop so the trains from KW can get to Pearson in 30 - 40 minutes".......yikes...it'll be Weston all over again! ;)

Kidding aside....I don't really see how you can get 4 tracks through there at all.

I think the answer here is you don't get 4 tracks through Guelph, you keep it at 2. Guelphites are a progressive bunch and for the most part, I don't think they'd mind the demolition of 10 or so properties if it means they'd be getting more rail service. (This of course means actually providing more rail service to Guelph, although doing so at a local level is hardly a stretch.) Trenching the rail corridor would at least increase the assessment value of homes on the north side as train passengers will no longer be able to tell what the homeowners are watching on TV.
 
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home demolition isn't that foreign of a concept, they just demolished roughly 30 homes and 2 commercial properties in Kitchener to widen Weber street and build the underpass for it, not too much of a peep about it.
 
I think the answer here is you don't get 4 tracks through Guelph, you keep it at 2. Guelphites are a progressive bunch and for the most part, I don't think they'd mind the demolition of 10 or so properties if it means they'd be getting more rail service. (This of course means actually providing more rail service to Guelph, although doing so at a local level is hardly a stretch.) Trenching the rail corridor would at least increase the assessment value of homes on the north side as train passengers will no longer be able to tell what the homeowners are watching on TV.

Sorry, I was talking about DT Brampton.. and since the 4th track is necessitated by this new london-kw-pearson-union express service, it would be disruptive work that is of no benefit to the community receiving the disruptive work.
 
home demolition isn't that foreign of a concept, they just demolished roughly 30 homes and 2 commercial properties in Kitchener to widen Weber street and build the underpass for it, not too much of a peep about it.

Yes it is easier though if you can point to the project and say to the area being disrupted "here is what you will get for it"
 
Yes it is easier though if you can point to the project and say to the area being disrupted "here is what you will get for it"

Which is probably why you'll see Guelph and Brampton getting more frequent service on an intercity level regardless. It's not exactly unwarranted either (unlike the UPX stop in Weston).
 
Wouldn't both Brampton and Guelph, given the prospect of tearing down some homes to make way for improvements, be getting much-improved (more frequent and faster) GO service as a result of the demolitions? I mean neither would be getting stops in this conceptual London-KW-Pearson-Toronto rail service but they'd still be seeing some benefit.
 
Wouldn't both Brampton and Guelph, given the prospect of tearing down some homes to make way for improvements, be getting much-improved (more frequent and faster) GO service as a result of the demolitions? I mean neither would be getting stops in this conceptual London-KW-Pearson-Toronto rail service but they'd still be seeing some benefit.

It would seem from speaking to people on here over time (people who I freely admit know a lot more about trains/train ops/train infrastructure) that (in the case of Brampton) that 3rd rail can be fit in without tearing down any buildings....it is the 4th one that is likely necessary to run, both, the 15 minute GO service and the the express train from London that would lead to some demolition....so, for that track, no Brampton would get nothing additional (Minister Murray stated today that those trains will not stop in Brampton).

I don't know enough about the Guelph situation to comment on whether they gain from the demolition or not.
 
If this is the real deal, it will be the first major infrastructure project for London in several decades. This place needs some investment and always seems to get the short end of the stick.

It would be a shot in the arm for Southwest Ontario too and may help draw growth away from Toronto where congestion is just getting worse and worse.

Who says this has to run entirely on existing rail lines? I'm sure a few new corridors will be proposed for the route.

I doubt it will be operated by GO, GO only operates within the Greater Golden Horseshoe (Kitchener is at the western edge).


All we can do now is wait for more details. I'm sure there will be talk about eastern and western extensions of the line as well.
 
It would seem from speaking to people on here over time (people who I freely admit know a lot more about trains/train ops/train infrastructure) that (in the case of Brampton) that 3rd rail can be fit in without tearing down any buildings....it is the 4th one that is likely necessary to run, both, the 15 minute GO service and the the express train from London that would lead to some demolition....so, for that track, no Brampton would get nothing additional (Minister Murray stated today that those trains will not stop in Brampton).

I don't know enough about the Guelph situation to comment on whether they gain from the demolition or not.

one could paradoxically say that the third track will be for the HSR and if you want the AD2W service you need the two otherwise worthless buildings to be demoed to fit in the 4th track.

All in all I feel you are being a bit petty here, you complain about anything on the Georgetown line that isn't AD2W to Brampton or that doesn't have some positive effect on brampton... relax. an HSR stop in Brampton doesn't really make sense because of its suburban nature and the close proximity of the Pearson airport stop, the nature of rail lines is that they won't benefit every damn little hamlet they pass through but they will benefit society as a whole. I understand your frustration with the lack of AD2W, but there are 5 other lines fighting for it as well and to simply rant on about how Brampton isn't getting absolutely everything that runs through it is silly. as Haljackey has said, this will be a boon for southern ontario and here we are getting bogged down in whether Brampton should allow them to tear down some car repair place to make it work. Its semantics and frankly I see little point in it. at a certain point you have to step back and take a look at what you are really arguing.

Guelph would gain nothing from it, beyond a couple of closed off streets. Technically they may receive AD2W as well, unless the HSR is the same thing as the AD2W, in which case I don't know.
 
Who says this has to run entirely on existing rail lines? I'm sure a few new corridors will be proposed for the route.

Geometry says.

Looks at the map all the way from London to Toronto. Look out how straight a line that track is. From Scarlett Road in Etobicoke to near Acton there's barely more than a single curve. There's a shallow curves climbing the escarpment east of Acton and one to the west. There's a curve at Rockwood, and a couple of small ones through Guelph. And there's a small curve crossing the Grand. And that's it, all the way to Kitchener. There's more curves between Kitchener and London, but this alignment is amazing. You won't ever get an alignment like this again. You can't "go around" Guelph. It's not an option.

And of course some trains will stop in Brampton. Murray has no idea what the timetable is going to be in 2030 or so when this might open. No one does, it's way too premature. Look at service patterns on similar lines elsewhere to get an idea for what the service would be.
 
I personally think after reading Glen Murray's tweets and the articles that that the KW tech industry has been a significant influence on this project being announced.

I think that the KW tech industry wants better train service to both Toronto and the airport for:
-attracting & retaining talent. Either to recruit people who live or want to live in Toronto or as a selling point to convince people to move to KW (you can take the train to Toronto to do things you can't do it KW, like watch an NHL game or see a big music concert)
-connection to investors, the media industry, the finance industry, and the rest of the world. Having investors from Toronto or flying in people from your company's office in California is much more convenient. Many Canadian corporations have HQ in Toronto.

All of this is correct. Tech sector leaders in KW (including the director of the Google office in Kitchener) repeat time and time again that inadequate transit from Toronto and from Pearson put a damper on the sector's growth and on its productivity.

KW generates a ridiculous number of start-ups on a regular basis, many of which turn into stable companies that put down roots in the region - and in the last few years, the growth has accelerated (including offices of companies established elsewhere) and the focus has shifted quite distinctly to downtown Kitchener. The place has quite serious economic growth prospects, and most importantly, the growth prospects are urban in nature - with both new offices and housing orienting around light rail stations.

Investing in high (or higher) speed intercity rail to/from Kitchener really does make sense, IMHO, due to the economic development value to the province of accelerating tech sector growth in KW.
 
Quite surprising the Liberals would promote any project outside of the GTHA. The whole project reeks of pre-election posturing/desperation, plus given Liberal previous lack of keeping promises (Highway 7 KW-Guelph comes to my mind) I donno how sincere they are in carrying out this project.

Great though that there's at least a project on the books now. Really surprised they selected Toronto-KW-London as the proposed route. Honestly would've thought Toronto-Aldershot-Brantford-Woodstock-London would be the route of any HSR route.

Be curious as to know where any planned HSR would go through London? Whether they would use the existing Via Station on York, perhaps the CPR near the old station.her CP or CN route would be interesting, considering 10+ minimum overpasses and grade separations on either line required it would run into the $100s of millions on that alone, before even acquiring exclusive ROW. Great project and one that would totally transform London if it comes to fruition in the next 10 years as planned!
 
Probably the only option I see for Kent Street is to bulldoze the south side and trench it, not unlike Weston. I don't think the width of the road right of way can allow for much else. Guelph can probably get by having two tracks for a while, there's not nearly as much freight going through there as there is in Brampton.

Long-term, it would probably be more beneficial to just reroute CN's freight corridor down the 407 to meet up with the existing track north of Milton. Short term, I have no idea what the best option is.

The plan for Kent St. is well know already. They will close several side streets, leaving only 2 going over the tracks. They will build a overpass/underpass on Edinburgh Road as well as Silvercreek. https://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?msid...ll=43.539496,-80.251994&spn=0.009722,0.019763
 
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one could paradoxically say that the third track will be for the HSR and if you want the AD2W service you need the two otherwise worthless buildings to be demoed to fit in the 4th track.

sure, they could try and sell that.....they would look like fools trying it though.

All in all I feel you are being a bit petty here, you complain about anything on the Georgetown line that isn't AD2W to Brampton or that doesn't have some positive effect on brampton... relax.

Call me petty (sure, if it makes you feel better call me anything you want) but right from the first sentence I typed on this subject I said I was looking at this from a Brampton perspective. It is a project that possibly has a direct effect on the community I live in....so I will comment on it as such.

an HSR stop in Brampton doesn't really make sense because of its suburban nature and the close proximity of the Pearson airport stop,

Well, one of the benefits that has been listed for this London-KW-Pearson-Union line was the movement of the thousands of students who attend schools in those markets......how many of those do you think come from the largest city in Canada without a University?

The Pearson stop benefits Brampton how? From the few details we have been told, the HSR stop will be at the terminal building, the closest the 15 minute GO service gets to that is Malton....how would someone from Brampton go to London? Take the GO to Union then switch to a train that doubles all the way back on the same track to London?


the nature of rail lines is that they won't benefit every damn little hamlet they pass through but they will benefit society as a whole.

I may be petty but I haven't taken to describing city well on its way to 600k people as a "dam little hamlet" just to sound superior and advance my argument.

I understand your frustration with the lack of AD2W,

See, here, I think you are carrying over discussions we have had on other threads into this. I have not been harping about AD2W GO in this thread because the provision of 15 minute GO service is part of this service.....I have been wondering how the infrastructure works considering the limitations that have been pointed out to us....but I have taken the announcements on their face....that this HSR happens along with AD2W GO (and in far greater amounts than previously thought).

but there are 5 other lines fighting for it as well and to simply rant on about how Brampton isn't getting absolutely everything that runs through it is silly.

Not even worth discussing....see above, all lines are getting AD2W GO as per the announcements.

as Haljackey has said, this will be a boon for southern ontario and here we are getting bogged down in whether Brampton should allow them to tear down some car repair place to make it work. Its semantics and frankly I see little point in it. at a certain point you have to step back and take a look at what you are really arguing.

Again you are ascribing words/thoughts to me that I have not even spoken. I doubted that you could get 4 tracks through Brampton.....you pointed out that you could and all you would lose were those two automotive buildings and I did not dispute that....I presume you know better than me so if that is all we lose then so be it......that said, I did suggest that some people will squawk about any disruption for something provides no local benefit....sorry if you thought I was going to be one of the squawkers......I would support it...yes, i would advocate for the train stopping in Brampton but that is a future discussion.

Guelph would gain nothing from it, beyond a couple of closed off streets. Technically they may receive AD2W as well, unless the HSR is the same thing as the AD2W, in which case I don't know.

I bowed on any discussion on Guelph....just don't know enough about what is proposed/needed there to offer anything to the discussion.
 
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