GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[mdrejhon]

Thanks for the details mdrejhon! I suppose my main beef with West Harbour getting increases and Hamilton Centre getting none is that Hamilton Centre is already set up to be far better served from a local transit perspective. Pretty much every bus route goes into or passes right by the MacNab terminal, which is a very short walk from the GO station, and most N-S routes take James up and John down, both of which book-end the GO station.

If the goal is to get people to take transit to the GO station instead of driving, Hamilton Centre is miles ahead of West Harbour in that regard. I get that the A-Line LRT (or even the stub of it that may get built in Phase I) will increase access to West Harbour, but it will never be as well connected to the local transit network as Hamilton Centre is. It's just a shame that the bulk of the service increases for the foreseeable future (<10 years) are going to a car-centric station as opposed to a transit-centric one.

If the goal is to get people to take transit to the GO station instead of driving, Hamilton Centre is miles ahead of West Harbour in that regard. I get that the A-Line LRT (or even the stub of it that may get built in Phase I) will increase access to West Harbour, but it will never be as well connected to the local transit network as Hamilton Centre is. It's just a shame that the bulk of the service increases for the foreseeable future (<10 years) are going to a car-centric station as opposed to a transit-centric one.

No kidding about the transit conundrums that exist in Hamilton.

As seen towards the end of the special feature article that I wrote, there's really damn good reasons why two major GO stations necessarily exist in downtown Hamilton (to only be fully utilized in 2020s+).

But I totally agree, how to best use each GO station, is going to be a bunch of tough decisions.

Nontheless, a good A-Line LRT peoplemover (maybe free north of King, like #99 bus, and Calgary C-Train downtown section) will help greatly and soften the difficult decisions about to be made relating to increasing Hamilton's GO service.

The whopper is the rail-to-rail grade separation necessary for 15-min RER, if we're going to get electrification all the way to Hamilton within our lifetimes (after the current 10-year RER plan), and whatever we build and plan now, pretty much needs to be compatible with that.

Fortunately West Harbour GO is actually a hybrid -- it's far less car-centric than the majority of GO stations, with much-better-than-average good intermodal connections (SoBi bikeshare, HSR bus, 99 bus, GO buses, and soon A-Line LRT) and a much smaller parking area of 300 cars. I'd even argue that West Harbour GO is ultimately more urban than even Long Branch GO, Mimico GO, Bloor GO, Danforth GO.

At the end of the day, West Harbour GO and Hamilton Downtown GO is only 15 minutes walk of each other -- This is only 1.5 kilometers -- which is less distance than the distance between College Street and Front Street in Toronto.

Along with obvious redevleopments (e.g. the empty lots that remain, as well as parking lots such as the one next to BMO) and the grand opportunity to finally revitalize City Centre (...and hopefully with a new street-friendly James facade...); there is potential for densification to creep towards West Harbour GO. With a "Regent Park style" redevelopment within 15-20 years that replaces the existing low-income housing adjacent to West Harbour, with a larger mixed-income development (adds more low income units, while paying off the complex with market priced units), especially as James St N revitalization creeps further northwards. I worry about the disruption, given the tightness of Hamilton's rental markets and how some of our friend suffer with the skyrocketing rents. But it is indeed a topic that will occur within a generation -- with the elephant (the statin) right next door.

Considering that the nearby piers are about to finally become redeveloped, the city's already presenting redevelopment plans for that area.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

The whopper is the rail-to-rail grade separation necessary for 15-min RER, if we're going to get electrification all the way to Hamilton within our lifetimes (after the current 10-year RER plan), and whatever we build and plan now, pretty much needs to be compatible with that.

There will have to be a lot of coordination on grade separations, and there should be attempts to centralize them at Bayview Junction, where the CN Oakville, CN Grimsby, CN Dundas and CP Hamilton subdivisions meet. There is a need to not only grade separate freight and passenger rail services, but to do it in all three directions (four if downtown Hamilton GO is to have a sustained future).

High speed rail is also a big question mark. The 2011 feasibility study examined an alignment that went through Bayview Junction and has an "East GTA" station. If the new HSR EA determines that this alignment is still laudable, the challenge it faces is the Escarpment, with a potential new right-of-way to allow a gentler grade.

Calling it a whopper is probably an understatement.

I would imagine that the best case scenario for 2030-2040s (RER phase 2), is allday service to both stations.

2035:
60-minute diesel service to Hamilton Downtown GO
15-minute electrified RER service to West Harbour GO
"Niagara Express" trains make connections at West Harbour GO (acting as a hub).

And I might be dreaming, but maybe, just maybe:

2040:
- Completion of $1bn+ tunnel under Welland canal
- Bi-parte agreement of on-board customs clearance for fast train zooms across U.S. borders.
- Amtrak Acela Express high speed trains stops at West Harbour GO

Definitely on board with you on this. Again, this is why I'm curious as to what the HSR EA will look at, and why I'm fairly critical of Glen Murray's original vision. We need to be looking at ways to connect with HSR initiatives to the US border and New York.

And, IMO, the best way to do this is make sure we future proof and provide three-way connections at Bayview Junction. So someone from London or Toronto can get to Buffalo and New York, and vice versa.

I'm sorry of some UT'ers get tired of me bringing this up, but I'm still think "Delta Station" at Bayview Junction is a good idea, as it would facilitate this, as well as transfers between regional HSR and local RER.

 

[mdrejhon]

High speed rail is also a big question mark. The 2011 feasibility study examined an alignment that went through Bayview Junction and has an "East GTA" station. If the new HSR EA determines that this alignment is still laudable, the challenge it faces is the Escarpment, with a potential new right-of-way to allow a gentler grade.

Calling it a whopper is probably an understatement.

Indeed.

Even though I don't see it happening in the timeline I'm dreaming of -- I was more thinking of an HSR that went to Niagara, not London (separate HSR route than the Toronto-Kitchener-London alignment). I'm not really sure HSR will happen on the Toronto-to-Niagara alignment in my lifetime, even though I see the Kitchener HSR/HPR alignment as ultimately being inevitable (At least in "High Performance Rail" format) in roughly a generation, give or take.

The Grimsby alignment is an extremely straight arrow all the way to St. Catharines except for a very minor 300kph-upgradeable curve that is almost invisible on Google Maps; and it does not cross the escarpment, so the grade is workable/reworkable for HSR without a new alignment. Freight could still run on 2 tracks, with 2 extra tracks added for electrified operations (HPR/HSR), as the corridor has mostly preserved a 4-track ROW alottment even after all these years. With HSR track installed, elimination of surface crossings, and only minor regrading, trains can easily accelerate beginning at West Harbour GO and maintain 300kph before decelerating near St. Catharines. And vice versa. Eliminate any further QEW/LINC expansions/extensions. All for similiar amount of money, if we've already RER-ified and grade-separated by then anyway.

HSR/HPR is not really a transit priority at this time, but makes sense in a 50-year incremental progress in the Grimsby/Niagara corridor.
RER to Burlington -> Bayview rail/rail grade separation -> RER to Hamilton -> Welland canal grade separation -> RER to Niagara -> HSR/HPR/Acela Express.

Ala 2015->2065, give or take 25 years, depending on political priorities.

Better that than that mid-pennisula freeway butchering through wineries (don't get me started). You know, the LINC extension to Niagara Falls that keeps coming up once every many years now and then! Horrors.

 

[mdrejhon]

hink "Delta Station" at Bayview Junction is a good idea, as it would facilitate this, as well as transfers between regional HSR and local RER.

I like the concept, but it feels like "Beyond my lifetime" to me due to freight --

Economically, I think ultimately it's cheaper to just build two separate HSR lines: Toronto-Kitchener-London, and Toronto-Hamilton-NiagaraFalls-(USA destinations). In this situation, you don't need to expropriate freight lines because there's corridor space to add HSR lines adjacent to freight lines -- and additional track and grade separations can completely avoid freight at Bayview/Hamilton junctions at a reasonable cost (relative to a new mid-pennisula freeway; LINC extension to Niagara Falls; the horrors -- and some Hamilton commentators still keep bringing it up to this date!)

Not mutually exclusive with the concept of a Delta station (Say, beyond my lifetime) assuming the freight issue was solved and a really damn good rapid transit connection to downtown; either way; any incremental progress to Niagara Falls is liable to happen first.

 

[dowlingm]

And I might be dreaming, but maybe, just maybe:

2040*:
- Completion of $1bn+ tunnel under Welland canal
- Bi-parte agreement of on-board customs clearance for fast train zooms across U.S. borders.
- Amtrak Acela Express high speed trains stops at West Harbour GO

*More likely 2140

Acela anywhere in upstate New York is gonna be a dream while Amtrak is squeezed between Metro North on one hand and CSX on the other, never mind all the way here

 

[mdrejhon]

Acela anywhere in upstate New York is gonna be a dream while Amtrak is squeezed between Metro North on one hand and CSX on the other, never mind all the way here

Yes, more like 2140.

Long, before that -- first biggie step needs to happen -- electrification of GO.

 

[gweed123]

The Bayview Junction grade separation would be an even larger scale than the CP-CN-GO grade separation that was done as part of the GTS. One advantage though is all of the road-rail grade separations are already there, so you don't have to worry about disrupting road traffic when you're doing it, only rail traffic.

The other part of it would be a rebuild of the Hunter Street tunnel, which might as well be done at the same time, considering the work required on the Bayview Junction would screw things up big time anyway.

Bringing HSR into the picture might actually help speed up the timeline, since that would provide a big impetus to initiate this mega-project. Once that is done though, it would free up/add capacity for HSR, inter-regional GO, GO RER, CN freight, and CP freight. Talk about a win for everybody, just with a huge price tag.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

The other part of it would be a rebuild of the Hunter Street tunnel, which might as well be done at the same time, considering the work required on the Bayview Junction would screw things up big time anyway.

So I think this is where you have to rationalize downtown vs. West Harbour, as mdrejhon alluded to. Does the work involved with the Hunter Street tunnel make sense when it's easier to expand service along the Grimsby sub, and continue on to Niagara Falls? It's one big factor West Harbour has going for it.

 

[Jonny5]

GO Train service to St. Catharines makes little sense at this point in time for several reasons:

• The Route 12 bus service, connecting to the train at Burlington, is faster than an all-rail route to Toronto, especially since the train crawls through East Hamilton. The QEW moves relatively well there at most times, except when the Skyway is closed due to high winds, or when there's a collision.

An acquaintance who commutes to Toronto from St. Catharines said the same thing. He actually drives to Burlington GO. The gas averages only $5 to $7 per trip, and the GO fare for that distance is $5.40 per trip.

 

[dowlingm]

An acquaintance who commutes to Toronto from St. Catharines said the same thing. He actually drives to Burlington GO. The gas averages only $5 to $7 per trip, and the GO fare for that distance is $5.40 per trip.

Given the geography involved (111km by road from St Catharines to Yonge Street), the shortest commuting option is a ferry.

 

[innsertnamehere]

GO fare from Burlington would be more than $5.40 a trip, their fare calculator is saying Burlington-Toronto would be $9.27.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Given the geography involved (111km by road from St Catharines to Yonge Street), the shortest commuting option is a ferry.
View attachment 60407

Welp, shortest =/= quickest eh? Maybe Porter can offer a flight to supplement their business now that they can't operate jets.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Given the geography involved (111km by road from St Catharines to Yonge Street), the shortest commuting option is a ferry.
View attachment 60407

Actually the idea of a Toronto-St. Catherines Ferry doesn’t seem so crazy (at least on the surface, I'm sure someone here can poke holes in it).

• distance of St. Catherines to Toronto is 50.78km directly
• Some ferries can travel at 41 knots, or 76 km/h
• Therefore the trip can be completed in ~40 minutes

A ferry like this is used in BC, and costs $63.5 million. Just something to think on. It would be pretty interesting to see GO Transit Ferries, however I'm not too sure how practical it would be.

http://www.timescolonist.com/busine...mo-fast-ferry-can-travel-at-41-knots-1.687436

 

[dowlingm]

The GO options from St. C are about 2h45 at best. Unfortunately the Rochester ferry fiasco will weigh heavily if this is ever discussed, even though that one was a loser from the beginning (no day 1 trucks, Rochester too far east so the road disadvantage narrows)

I don't think you'd need a speedster, just something with a reasonable draft which can operate reliably safely in a Lake Ontario winter with a dock to dock time under 2 hours (especially since it may not be able to dock super close to Yonge Street).

 

[Jonny5]

GO fare from Burlington would be more than $5.40 a trip, their fare calculator is saying Burlington-Toronto would be $9.27.

$5.40 is the marginal cost to extend a trip from Burlington to St. Catharines.