GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)

[innsertnamehere]

Yup, but it slow considering the distance is only 100km or so. At highway speeds that is less than an hour. Getting it down to 1:20 or so would be an "acceptable" travel time for such a trip if you ask me.

 

[ssiguy2]

I can understand needing parking at some of the stations but shouldn't electrification be a bigger priority? A full RER can live run without all the garages being built but can't without full electrification.

 

[ShonTron]

Yup, but it slow considering the distance is only 100km or so. At highway speeds that is less than an hour. Getting it down to 1:20 or so would be an "acceptable" travel time for such a trip if you ask me.

At highway speeds, Downtown Barrie is just under an hour from the 400/401 interchange. If traffic on the 401 and Gardiner is fine, it's another 20 minutes to Downtown Toronto. That's without traffic.

The train is slower than a direct, traffic-free drive, and slightly slower than taking a Greyhound or Northland bus that makes one stop at Yorkdale. (The GO bus from Union goes up the DVP, makes two stops in Aurora before reaching Newmarket and a forced transfer to a milk run GO bus via old Highway 11. That's a slog.)

 

[innsertnamehere]

I expect the travel time will drop with electrification and other RER programs anyway. There is talk of tilted trains and track speed improvements, which should help a lot.

 

[drum118]

In Kitchener New Layover Yard

Province plans new GO bus facility on Shirley Avenue

 

[steveintoronto]

In Kitchener New Layover Yard

Province plans new GO bus facility on Shirley Avenue

Driver on the 29 eastbound from Guelph a month back was talking about this. He lives in Kitchener, and I was amazed they didn't already have a garage there. It will make life a lot easier for a number of drivers who live in the K/W area (a lot cheaper than Guelph). It might also allow allocating a few new routes out of K/W....fingers crossed, maybe even the legendary run via Aberfoyle down Hwy 6 to Hamilton?

 

[nfitz]

How about a simple Kitchener-Guelph service!

 

[steveintoronto]

How about a simple Kitchener-Guelph service!

Yeah! That could, of course, be included as an extension of a Hamilton to Guelph run.

It costs almost as much to take the Hateground bus from Guelph to K-W as it does Guelph to Toronto, not that I've taken a GH for years. I'm not broke, but I just can't justify that kind of expenditure, plus they want bikes in boxes, nixes it right there for me most of the time.

Hateground are already cut back to the bone in frequency of runs...I don't know who has dibs on the Guelph to Hamilton run, it was Canada Coach, then GH, then About Town....it's time for GO to step into the void, even if it's only every two hours, it's essential to connect K/W to Guelph to Hamilton. Perhaps even a run Aberfoyle to Hamilton to connect with 29 and 25 and 48 buses (and whatever the peak express run to Milton from K/W is).

Extending an Aberfoyle to Hamilton bus up through Guelph to K/W via Hwy 7 makes incredible sense...*especially* when the new Hwy 7 is finished through there.

In the interim of Hwy 7 being as it is, a choice would remain to take the 25 to Aberfoyle (especially one of the X ones) and connect there for Hamilton. It's not just Joe Worker service, it connects the universities.

For those not familiar with what a GO ride Hamilton/Guelph looks like right now: (and yes, that's three buses, albeit it can be done with two, meshing permitting) (It's a two hour trip minimum each way)

 

[reaperexpress]

^yup. The train still takes nearly 2 hours, though.

I think it has something to do with how far away Barrie is from Union....I could, of course, be wrong on that. KW has a similar issue as does Niagara

Yes, 100 km is a long way for a commuter train, but even so, 2 hours is a rather long time.

In North America, it is very unusual to have a commuter rail line with a 2-hour travel time, but it is not that unusual to have a line that covers 100+ km. Here is a summary I made of all commuter rail lines in North America which cover 100 km. For each line I picked the fastest AM peak-direction trip to the city centre from the station closest to the 100 km mark. I also included the Toronto VIA lines and GO Niagara service for reference.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

^yup. The train still takes nearly 2 hours, though.

I think it has something to do with how far away Barrie is from Union....I could, of course, be wrong on that. KW has a similar issue as does Niagara

Yup, but it slow considering the distance is only 100km or so. At highway speeds that is less than an hour. Getting it down to 1:20 or so would be an "acceptable" travel time for such a trip if you ask me.

At highway speeds, Downtown Barrie is just under an hour from the 400/401 interchange. If traffic on the 401 and Gardiner is fine, it's another 20 minutes to Downtown Toronto. That's without traffic.

The train is slower than a direct, traffic-free drive, and slightly slower than taking a Greyhound or Northland bus that makes one stop at Yorkdale. (The GO bus from Union goes up the DVP, makes two stops in Aurora before reaching Newmarket and a forced transfer to a milk run GO bus via old Highway 11. That's a slog.)

I expect the travel time will drop with electrification and other RER programs anyway. There is talk of tilted trains and track speed improvements, which should help a lot.

Yes, 100 km is a long way for a commuter train, but even so, 2 hours is a rather long time.

In North America, it is very unusual to have a commuter rail line with a 2-hour travel time, but it is not that unusual to have a line that covers 100+ km. Here is a summary I made last year of all commuter rail lines in North America which cover 100 km. For each line I picked the fastest AM peak-direction trip to the city centre from the station closest to the 100 km mark. I also included the Toronto VIA lines and GO Niagara service for reference.
View attachment 89739

It's not really good at all and I hope they improve the tracks north of Mulock/Aurora somehow during this phase of construction.

I can understand needing parking at some of the stations but shouldn't electrification be a bigger priority? A full RER can live run without all the garages being built but can't without full electrification.

Agreed. Waste of money.

 

[steveintoronto]

Yes, 100 km is a long way for a commuter train, but even so, 2 hours is a rather long time.

Especially when considering that doing that trip return each working day, plus time added from station to work and home, is over 50% of an 8 hour work day. I call that "unsustainable"...albeit some I met from my doing it from Guelph to Bloor West for two months last year had been doing it for "over eight years". My God....Ironically besides being 'back in the middle of the action' living back in Toronto near Bloor station, I also get cheaper rent here too compared to Guelph. And cheaper shopping!

To completely change the subject, your maps and graphs are always wonderful things to consider, there's stories in there, and one of them is the "Niagara (weekend)" run's "Top Speed" with "4 stops". It's virtually identical to VIA's "Toronto-Brantford" run for top speed, with *zero stops*!

Any chance of a figure that exactly matches GO's Niagara run by VIA/Amtrak? I suspect from the Brantford performance that they will be very similar, if not identical for top speed....which is very interesting in terms of 'setting a performance bar' of what GO is *technically* capable of achieving with their present rolling stock and motive power.

And/or, a comparison of VIA's K/W or Guelph to Toronto time compared to GO's. In all fairness to GO, the average speed will be much lower, obviously, due to the number of stops, but that "top speed" figure in your charts, with caveats, indicates massive room for improvement, given a number of factors being addressed.

A case in point for the value of that available running speed for GO: The stranded LE train a month back, just east of Ajax, for approaching four hours. There was a claim made in these forums that it would "take an hour to get an emergency rescue consist there from Willowbrook". Metrolinx themselves have alluded to similar. I'll detail more later, but that excuse seems rather baseless in light of the figures you post.

Very interesting...

Edit to Add: The VIA run, TO to Port Hope pretty much gives me the answer I'm looking for. Ajax is less than half that distance, as low as a third depending on whether calculated by road, rail or geographically. VIA's time TO to Oshawa might be as good a comparison as is possible. Any comparative figures provided most appreciated.

 

[EnviroTO]

I can understand needing parking at some of the stations but shouldn't electrification be a bigger priority? A full RER can live run without all the garages being built but can't without full electrification.

Electrification is moving along at the speed it can. There is a lot of work to do. There is no point hanging wires if the tracks and substations/paralleling stations aren't there yet. At the same time the GO is adding tracks they want to get the benefit as soon as possible so on many corridors they plan on doubling peak capacity in the next 5 years which would be wasted capacity if passengers didn't show up because the parking lots are full and the local transit isn't convenient. The shift away from drive and ride is going to take time, and even if the stations become modal hubs, even modal hubs like those you see in Japan with big malls, department stores, walkable neighbourhoods, etc. have large parking garages attached to them.

 

[reaperexpress]

To completely change the subject, your maps and graphs are always wonderful things to consider, there's stories in there, and one of them is the "Niagara (weekend)" run's "Top Speed" with "4 stops". It's virtually identical to VIA's "Toronto-Brantford" run for top speed, with *zero stops*!

Any chance of a figure that exactly matches GO's Niagara run by VIA/Amtrak? I suspect from the Brantford performance that they will be very similar, if not identical for top speed....which is very interesting in terms of 'setting a performance bar' of what GO is *technically* capable of achieving with their present rolling stock and motive power.

Thanks!

The Niagara VIA/Amtrak service was not included in that chart because there is no AM Peak service into Toronto. Here's an updated chart with the evening Maple Leaf trip added in blue. I've also shown the columns that were hidden in the above version.

The "top speed" column is either the highest speed limit along the route, or the top speed of the train itself, whichever is the limiting factor. It does not consider whether the trains actually get up to that speed. That said, I can confirm that all the Toronto examples reach the listed top speed except for the VIA/Amtrak Maple Leaf.

For the Niagara and Brantford VIA services, the "top speed" is the 95 mph speed limit between Aldershot and Mimico. When I've ridden VIA Corridor services, they have indeed cruised at 95 mph (153 km/h), but bizarrely when I've ridden the VIA/Amtrak Maple Leaf along the same stretch, it's only gone 80 mph (130 km/h), even when behind schedule. I know it's not an equipment limitation because the same train gets up to 110 mph (177 km/h) in upstate New York.

The Niagara GO service has a top speed of only 93 mph because although the speed limit is as high as 95 mph, the top speed of the MP40 locomotives is only 150 km/h (93 mph). I know it can get up to full speed between stops because I caught it on video doing 91 mph (147 km/h) through Appleby station.

The top speed for Kitchener GO and VIA trains should be 90 mph between Malton and Weston according to the planning documents for the now-complete Georgetown South Project. But since I've never seen a train go more than 80 mph through that stretch, I left the top speed as 80 mph in the chart.

And/or, a comparison of VIA's K/W or Guelph to Toronto time compared to GO's. In all fairness to GO, the average speed will be much lower, obviously, due to the number of stops, but that "top speed" figure in your charts, with caveats, indicates massive room for improvement, given a number of factors being addressed.

For Guelph to Toronto, the closest thing I have is this chart comparing GO and VIA for long-distance commuting. The per-trip cost for VIA is based on the 10-pack bulk ticket price. I was surprised to discover that it's actually cheaper to commute from Kitchener on VIA than it is on GO if you make 10-30 trips per month.

A case in point for the value of that available running speed for GO: The stranded LE train a month back, just east of Ajax, for approaching four hours. There was a claim made in these forums that it would "take an hour to get an emergency rescue consist there from Willowbrook". Metrolinx themselves have alluded to similar. I'll detail more later, but that excuse seems rather baseless in light of the figures you post.

In ideal conditions, it would take less than half an hour to drive a train from Willowbrook to Ajax. But if I recall correctly, this was the AM rush, so 2 out of the 3 Lakeshore East tracks would be occupied by trains heading westbound into Toronto. The single eastbound track is also used by local trains, so there's a chance you could get stuck behind one. And good luck running an unscheduled train through the congested USRC at rush hour without getting delayed.

And that's only the time once the train is moving. It doesn't include the time it would take to find a crew, get that crew to a spare train and get that spare train ready to depart.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Especially when considering that doing that trip return each working day, plus time added from station to work and home, is over 50% of an 8 hour work day. I call that "unsustainable"...albeit some I met from my doing it from Guelph to Bloor West for two months last year had been doing it for "over eight years". My God....Ironically besides being 'back in the middle of the action' living back in Toronto near Bloor station, I also get cheaper rent here too compared to Guelph. And cheaper shopping!

To completely change the subject, your maps and graphs are always wonderful things to consider, there's stories in there, and one of them is the "Niagara (weekend)" run's "Top Speed" with "4 stops". It's virtually identical to VIA's "Toronto-Brantford" run for top speed, with *zero stops*!

Any chance of a figure that exactly matches GO's Niagara run by VIA/Amtrak? I suspect from the Brantford performance that they will be very similar, if not identical for top speed....which is very interesting in terms of 'setting a performance bar' of what GO is *technically* capable of achieving with their present rolling stock and motive power.

And/or, a comparison of VIA's K/W or Guelph to Toronto time compared to GO's. In all fairness to GO, the average speed will be much lower, obviously, due to the number of stops, but that "top speed" figure in your charts, with caveats, indicates massive room for improvement, given a number of factors being addressed.

A case in point for the value of that available running speed for GO: The stranded LE train a month back, just east of Ajax, for approaching four hours. There was a claim made in these forums that it would "take an hour to get an emergency rescue consist there from Willowbrook". Metrolinx themselves have alluded to similar. I'll detail more later, but that excuse seems rather baseless in light of the figures you post.

Very interesting...

Edit to Add: The VIA run, TO to Port Hope pretty much gives me the answer I'm looking for. Ajax is less than half that distance, as low as a third depending on whether calculated by road, rail or geographically. VIA's time TO to Oshawa might be as good a comparison as is possible. Any comparative figures provided most appreciated.

They should refurbish the tracks so the trains can speed up. Part of the problem is that they are old!.

Electrification is moving along at the speed it can. There is a lot of work to do. There is no point hanging wires if the tracks and substations/paralleling stations aren't there yet. At the same time the GO is adding tracks they want to get the benefit as soon as possible so on many corridors they plan on doubling peak capacity in the next 5 years which would be wasted capacity if passengers didn't show up because the parking lots are full and the local transit isn't convenient. The shift away from drive and ride is going to take time, and even if the stations become modal hubs, even modal hubs like those you see in Japan with big malls, department stores, walkable neighbourhoods, etc. have large parking garages attached to them.

But here's the thing: All the money they have spent on parking complexes, could have gone to extra tracks on the Milton line or extra capacity on lakeshore. Seems like a waste of time. And people are clamouring for more trains.

 

[Megaton327]

But here's the thing: All the money they have spent on parking complexes, could have gone to extra tracks on the Milton line or extra capacity on lakeshore. Seems like a waste of time. And people are clamouring for more trains.

Without extra parking there won't be people riding those extra trains.

Lakeshore is pretty dead most of the time off peak. On peak it's way over capacity for parking by 7AM at many stations.