Education of newcomers to Canada (moved from transport)

[Whoaccio]

I disagree with how the current immigration system picks and chooses which immigrants are allowed to come into Canada based off of neurotic point schemes. The Min. Citzenship compiles great codices on, literally, all of the thousands of possible jobs (i.e. cross word puzzle creator) and how each should be ranked as well as just about every other possible criteria. It is pretty well accepted now, even within more NDPish circles, that the government is generally not succesful at intervening and picking winners in the market places unless it is absolutely necessary. If we have abandoned the idea we can run a command & control economy, why would do we think we can command society?

Determine the rough numbers of what it costs the government, through things like ESL, to bring the typical immigrant up to speed and just charge the immigrant the value. Instead of going through this song and dance about picking and choosing the best immigrant for this and that, just charge anybody who wants to immigrate fifty thousand dollars and let them in the week after*. That may sound like a lot of money, but the increased earning power most immigrants acquire when moving to Canada would easily make it worthwhile after only a few years, not to mention intangibles like a non-corrupt police force and recurring famines.

*Let anybody in, provided they don't have an infectious disease, criminal/terrorist record or some other trait which would make them an unacceptable risk to the local population. I would also support having everybody swear an oath to the Charter of Rights as a sort of contract the immigrant would sign with the government/society.

 

[afransen]

Who,

Problem there is that immigrants don't only incur costs, but also provide benefits to society. For instance, getting someone fresh out of uni in another country is quite a boon. They have all their tax-paying years ahead of them, and we didn't have to sink $100,000+ in educating them.

In my opinion, if someone can secure a job here, they should be able to stay. If they can hold a job for a few years, they can be a citizen. All of the usual caveats.

 

[jenny_zhang]

And no dual citizenship.

 

[urbanfan89]

Perhaps in the Former East Germany or Soviet Union, but this is a democratic state in a globalized world. Either we get used to people having connections all over the world, or we lose the global war for talent to those who do. It's that simple.

 

[jenny_zhang]

So Japan is talentless and uncompetitive?

"Having connections" and taking advantage of a loose immigration system are different things. Bringing talent is good. Bringing people who come to educate their kids and then bolt back to their home country maybe isn't that great.

 

[cacruden]

^ I think that is overblown, the majority stay.

It is no different then when I was working in the US during the .com era and large numbers of Canadians were working down there. A lot of them were educated in Canada, but started working, earning money and getting taxed in the US. So what is the difference? To me, none.... which means where were these people then to complain?

 

[cacruden]

I disagree with how the current immigration system picks and chooses which immigrants are allowed to come into Canada based off of neurotic point schemes. The Min. Citzenship compiles great codices on, literally, all of the thousands of possible jobs (i.e. cross word puzzle creator) and how each should be ranked as well as just about every other possible criteria. It is pretty well accepted now, even within more NDPish circles, that the government is generally not succesful at intervening and picking winners in the market places unless it is absolutely necessary. If we have abandoned the idea we can run a command & control economy, why would do we think we can command society?

Determine the rough numbers of what it costs the government, through things like ESL, to bring the typical immigrant up to speed and just charge the immigrant the value. Instead of going through this song and dance about picking and choosing the best immigrant for this and that, just charge anybody who wants to immigrate fifty thousand dollars and let them in the week after*. That may sound like a lot of money, but the increased earning power most immigrants acquire when moving to Canada would easily make it worthwhile after only a few years, not to mention intangibles like a non-corrupt police force and recurring famines.

*Let anybody in, provided they don't have an infectious disease, criminal/terrorist record or some other trait which would make them an unacceptable risk to the local population. I would also support having everybody swear an oath to the Charter of Rights as a sort of contract the immigrant would sign with the government/society.

The point system is by far a much better system in the US, but I prefer the government not trying to "pick" which "skilled" immigrants should be allowed in. If a company is willing to offer a job to a potential immigrant - maybe guaranteeing a minimum contract length - at prevailing market rates - then that person should be at the front of the list of "immigrants". If you work a minimum number of years - you get to become "semi-permanent" (2 years), then after another 3 you can apply to become a citizen (you cannot apply for welfare). If you loose your job - you are given some time to find another - or you loose your status and you must leave. Someone entering this way cannot apply for refugee status under any circumstances.

I believe a move to a system like this will allow people that want to work to immigrate to Canada easily, while making it harder to jump to economic "refugee" (i.e. fake refugee). If you make it easy to enter Canada for work - then bar those refugee status - you remove a loophole since economic immigrants will take the easiest route.

 

[cacruden]

And no dual citizenship.

I actually don't really want that to be part of our system. I cannot remember us ever baring dual citizenship. Actually up until around 50 years ago, it was fairly easy to move back and forth from the US, and I have a number of relatives that are dual citizens. I also have friends that are dual citizens (born in Canada) which grants them access to the EU market. Additionally, for new immigrants, barring dual citizenship is just denying reality. Most new immigrants come here because they want to be here - but it does not stop them from having attachments to foreign countries. Future generations loose that attachment.

The first I heard of complaints about HK coming to Canada for education, then returning to work in HK... was from a friend of mine which grew up most of his life in Canada - then returning to HK to work ONLY because his wife will have a much harder time working in Canada because of accreditation problems (but she can work in England no problem) [lawyer]. Most people immigrating from HK did so because of fear about the impending takeover from China - and most did not think they would return.... A number have just because they could make good money, although right now the HK economy is being kept afloat by "rich" mainlanders coming in from mainland China to spend money - if not from that the economy would have tanked recently. So it will be less of an issue the next few years. I actually find these complaints to be petty, especially since I know of a large number of Canadians that were educated here - but work in the US - yet no outrage of subsidizing them ....

 

[kEiThZ]

I disagree with how the current immigration system picks and chooses which immigrants are allowed to come into Canada based off of neurotic point schemes. The Min. Citzenship compiles great codices on, literally, all of the thousands of possible jobs (i.e. cross word puzzle creator) and how each should be ranked as well as just about every other possible criteria. It is pretty well accepted now, even within more NDPish circles, that the government is generally not succesful at intervening and picking winners in the market places unless it is absolutely necessary. If we have abandoned the idea we can run a command & control economy, why would do we think we can command society?

But we aren't commanding society. Just immigration. The point system has its flaws but its actually quite a fair and effective system. That's why the Brits are actually stealing a page from us. It judges candidates objectively with transparent criteria. The same can't be said for most other immigration systems.

The problems that we have are all related to implementation. Immigration Canada sucks at compiling the points list for jobs in a timely and accurate fashion. And while we give points for education, what we should really be doing is evaluating that education against Canadian standards and award points accordingly. Just two examples there.

Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

My personal beef is with family class immigration. That is what really needs reforms. I would like to see some kind of degree of sponsorship limit. ie. if you sponsored your 70 year old mother, she can't then turn around and sponsor your married brothers and sisters who won't qualify. Better yet, give the 70 year old grand mother 10 year unlimited stay multiple entry visas. Don't give them immigration. When they are here they can get Blue Cross....works for my family whenever my grandmother is here (she doesn't stay long enough to actually qualify for health care under her PR and prefers her doctors in India anyway). Family class migration needs reform. It's become the backdoor into Canada for many who wouldn't otherwise qualify.

As for education of newcomers...English or French. It gets me ticked as an immigrant that my tax dollars are going towards the hordes of translators who work for various government services ie courts, driver testing, etc. That's wrong. They tell you when you are applying to Canada that the languages of the country are English and French. If you want to move here, learn the language like every other migrant who came here before you. The only reason it's this way now is because the government goes out of its way to accommodate those without the language skills. Look where that's got us...we have kids who are born here in ESL these days!

 

[prosperegal]

As for education of newcomers...English or French. It gets me ticked as an immigrant that my tax dollars are going towards the hordes of translators who work for various government services ie courts, driver testing, etc. That's wrong. They tell you when you are applying to Canada that the languages of the country are English and French. If you want to move here, learn the language like every other migrant who came here before you. The only reason it's this way now is because the government goes out of its way to accommodate those without the language skills. Look where that's got us...we have kids who are born here in ESL these days!

But no matter how much English and/or French an immigrant knows, he or she will have an accent. My parents both speak fluent English and have spoken fluent English since they were in their teens. However, because they came to Canada as adults, they sound like they're from Hong Kong. They didn't teach me English because they didn't want me to have an accent. They wanted me to have a clean slate. That's why I entered kindergarten only knowing a few words. I actually know a good number of first generation CBCs who had parents with the same philosophy. They learned English at school, not from the 'rents.

 

[jade_lee]

There's a great book named How the Scotts Built the Modern World, or something like that, and while it's much tongue in cheek, it is very informative about the Scottish legacy around the world.

The book is called "how the Scotts invented the modern world" I got it for Christmas!

 

[jade_lee]

My son's buddy immigrated to Canada 5 years ago from Pakistan with his parents . The kid learned English here and finished his high school education. He is now in medical school in Florida and I wonder if he will be able to practice as a doctor here once he obtains his MD as that is his goal. A real success story. He and my son have basketball in common, I hope this kid's will to succeed has rubbed off on my son! My only complaint of him was that he hated my cooking

 

[prosperegal]

My son's buddy immigrated to Canada 5 years ago from Pakistan with his parents . The kid learned English here and finished his high school education. He is now in medical school in Florida and I wonder if he will be able to practice as a doctor here once he obtains his MD as that is his goal. A real success story. He and my son have basketball in common, I hope this kid's will to succeed has rubbed off on my son! My only complaint of him was that he hated my cooking

Here's how a US-trained doctor can work in Canada

US trained doctors and internationally (non-US) trained doctors are a separate category. Maybe because in many other countries, applicants apply to med school straight out of high school, while undergraduate studies are needed in Canada and the US??

Info for non-US/Canada educated doctors

Basically, if you want to work as an MD in Canada, you have to spend some time in training.

 

[ganjavih]

He would have to do his residency training (specialty training) in Canada to obtain a licence to practise here. And, yes, it's easier for US medical graduates to get a residency spot here than other internationals.

 

[jade_lee]

I will pass that information on to him. Ta