Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[Rainforest]

I don't think that's the case at all ("are just trying to take revenge") I think the bigger concern is that we don't spend all our money here that there wont be anything left and we will see constant delays for the DRL. It wont matter if Scarborough has a direct connection if there is no DRL at pape to help alleviate the stress at yonge.

Opponents of SSE make two types of statements that, IMO, are mutually exclusive:

1) SSE costs too much; let's spend the same amount on Scarborough transit but build a different kind of system.

2) SSE costs too much; meanwhile we need money for DRL.

Noone can spend same funds twice. Either all money would be spend in Scarborough, and then still nothing left for DRL. Or, some of the money could be redirected to DRL, and then there isn't same amount for Scarborough.

It would be nice to read how the opponents would actually spend the extra funds if they were diverted from SSE.

Also I don't understand how it was acceptable for people to basically make false lies to derail the fully funded, contract signed SLRT (it isn't grade separated according to our former best mayor ever) years ago but today we are simply supposed to go ahead because somehow we have crossed an imaginary line of no return. Or is it that the line of no return only exists when it is in alignment with ones preferred plan.

Sorry, that sound like the logic of hurt feelings, not best choices. Some bad guys derailed "our" SLRT, therefore let's derail "their" subway.

 

[kEiThZ]

Opponents of SSE make two types of statements that, IMO, are mutually exclusive:

1) SSE costs too much; let's spend the same amount on Scarborough transit but build a different kind of system.

2) SSE costs too much; meanwhile we need money for DRL.

This. Would happily trade the SSE for a full guarantee of RER/SmartTrack and all the LRTs to their original destinations. This means grade separated SLRT to Malvern mall, Sheppard to the zoo, Eglinton to Morningside and Morningside right up to Morningside Heights. But that's not on offer. Instead, we'll get SLRT till Sheppard, Morningside till UTS, Sheppard till Morningside and Stouffville RER in maybe the next half century....if we're lucky.

Because the truth of the matter is that this not about building the most for Scarborough. It's about cutting the amount spent in Scarborough.

We also have this bizarre idea that the SSE means no or delayed DRL. How come nobody said that when they were building subways to the green fields of Vaughan? The reality is that the projects are mutually exclusive. And cutting the SSE will not suddenly mean dramatic movement on the DRL.

 

[DB9]

In all fairness, Rob Ford wasn't in power long enough to implement any of his vision before the petty idiot council stripped him of his authority. For all we know three subways to Scarborough could've been under construction or nearing finalization by this point if not for the Stintz coup detat.

I wonder how much crack cocaine one would have to smoke to think little Robbie's funding plan will magically get his Sheppard subway fantasies built.

 

[DB9]

This. Would happily trade the SSE for a full guarantee of RER/SmartTrack and all the LRTs to their original destinations. This means grade separated SLRT to Malvern mall, Sheppard to the zoo, Eglinton to Morningside and Morningside right up to Morningside Heights. But that's not on offer. Instead, we'll get SLRT till Sheppard, Morningside till UTS, Sheppard till Morningside and Stouffville RER in maybe the next half century....if we're lucky.

The biggest issue I find is that there doesn't seem to be any political will to champion a realistic transit solution for Scarborough, especially amongst Scarborough based politicians. RER/Smarttrack barely registers on the radar for politicans in the borough, even though it's sorely needed.

Even during the recent provincial election in my old riding of Agincourt - the rally cry has been "Scarborough deserves subways" - regardless of political affiliation.

 

[Hopkins123]

I wonder how much crack cocaine one would have to smoke to think little Robbie's funding plan will magically get his Sheppard subway fantasies built.

Well, now his brother is controlling the Provincial purse-strings and the PCs have long campaigned on completing the Sheppard Subway left-wingers have long left to rot by the wayside... so maybe not crack, but perhaps toking some of that Trudeau ganja will make all of us whom were holding out hope a believer!

 

[rbt]

But we still need a high-capacity line to connect STC to Kennedy Station.

I've yet to hear a good argument why STC makes a good stop (not on this thread of from any politicians yet). Walkins are almost zero; nearly everyone arrives by subsidized bus. There is a mall and city offices but combined they're worth a small fraction of the value of the extension (I.e. they could be relocated at a much lower price).

It'll take at least 30,000 residential units (sixty 50 floor buildings) to make STC useful to locals.

STC as proposed is a feel good stop with little actual value; it's a massive centralized out-of-the-way transfer point. Successful transit (read as transit modal split %age) usually has to eliminate those in favour of grid solution; many smaller transfer points which doen't take the rider as far out of their way.

Scarborough would benefit from solutions that begin much closer to where people live and take them more directly to their actual destination.


There are financial benefits to aggregating riders but the subway proposal fails there too (just as Vaughan and Sheppard extensions fail); annual taxes will need to increase to subsidize subway service in addition to subsidizing the bus service required to get riders to the subway. Scarborough residents will pay more taxes and continue to drive their car because transit didn't even try to compete with it.

 

[syn]

I've yet to hear a good argument why STC makes a good stop (not on this thread of from any politicians yet). Walkins are almost zero; nearly everyone arrives by subsidized bus. There is a mall and city offices but combined they're worth a small fraction of the value of the extension (I.e. they could be relocated at a much lower price).

It'll take at least 30,000 residential units (sixty 50 floor buildings) to make STC useful to locals.

Great point, one that highlights the folly of this extension, but also demonstrates why Sheppard was such a bad idea. For all the praise for some new condos, it's still far, far away from justifying it's existence.

Scarborough would benefit from solutions that begin much closer to where people live and take them more directly to their actual destination.

This is why SmartTrack/RER seems to be the best solution, along with a comprehensive LRT network that actually provides rapid transit within Scarborough. There are a number of stops located in very accessible locations.

Scarborough has had three subway stops for decades now, along with a Rapid Transit link to the SCC. An RT link that's generally far faster and more reliable than the streetcars people have to ride downtown.

They've done a terrible job taking advantage of these infrastructure investments. I have a hard time believing this is the giant infrastructure investment they'll properly utilize.

As you've ably pointed out, the numbers make it clear that isn't something that won't happen for a few lifetimes (at the very least).

 

[Rainforest]

I've yet to hear a good argument why STC makes a good stop (not on this thread of from any politicians yet). Walkins are almost zero; nearly everyone arrives by subsidized bus. There is a mall and city offices but combined they're worth a small fraction of the value of the extension (I.e. they could be relocated at a much lower price).

That's true. I should have been more clear: there is a massive demand from the north and north-east of Scarborough towards the Kennedy Stn. Those riders can transfer at STC or they could transfer at other point / points, but either way they need a high-capacity line to transfer to.

It'll take at least 30,000 residential units (sixty 50 floor buildings) to make STC useful to locals.

STC as proposed is a feel good stop with little actual value; it's a massive centralized out-of-the-way transfer point. Successful transit (read as transit modal split %age) usually has to eliminate those in favour of grid solution; many smaller transfer points which doen't take the rider as far out of their way.

Scarborough would benefit from solutions that begin much closer to where people live and take them more directly to their actual destination.

Scarborough's local transit system is a grid of bus routes already. Major routes follow their streets, so most of the riders do not need to divert to STC if they travel within the area and STC is out of their way.

The reason STC is the only station per the current plan, is the desire to save on construction costs. I hope they will add Lawrence East station, to improve the connectivity.

There are financial benefits to aggregating riders but the subway proposal fails there too (just as Vaughan and Sheppard extensions fail); annual taxes will need to increase to subsidize subway service in addition to subsidizing the bus service required to get riders to the subway. Scarborough residents will pay more taxes and continue to drive their car because transit didn't even try to compete with it.

An underground station obviously costs more to maintain than a surface station. But if we compare the maintenance cost of 1 or 2 SSE stations against 7 stations that SLRT would have, the former might be cheaper.

And, we don't mind maintaining lightly used stations like Chester or Summerill, thus we shouldn't be too worried about maintaining one or two new stations that will see much greater usage.

 

[micheal_can]

Would connecting Sheppard line to Bloor Line through STC make sense?

 

[Neutrino]

^

 

[Leo_Chan]

Would connecting Sheppard line to Bloor Line through STC make sense?

When you mean through STC, do you mean at a direct connection that terminates or at a 90 degree connection that continues east?

 

[micheal_can]

When you mean through STC, do you mean at a direct connection that terminates or at a 90 degree connection that continues east?

I mean that until the city decides on what to extend east of STC, have those 2 lines connected. That would mean the terminus of the east end of the Bloor line would be Sheepard-Yonge.

 

[OneCity]

I mean that until the city decides on what to extend east of STC, have those 2 lines connected. That would mean the terminus of the east end of the Bloor line would be Sheepard-Yonge.

Given the current status I hope they build in 3 phases to avoid any severe delay

Phase 1. Extend the BDL to SCC as per the current alignment
Phase 2. Extend BDL to McCowan
Phase 3. Extend Sheppard directly to Markham Rd. and connect the EELRT.

 

[Rainforest]

Would connecting Sheppard line to Bloor Line through STC make sense?

IMO, that should not be a priority for the next 20 to 30 years.

Cons:
1) The cost of extending Sheppard Subway will be very substantial, to the tune of $4B or $5B. Would be better spent on the Relief Line and then on Yonge North.
2) If the two lines are integrated, additional costs will be incurred on the Sheppard line: running 6-car trains instead of 4-car, and possibly the need to install ATO.
3) The integrated line will be longer, thus more prune to delays in one section that affect the rest of the line.

I see only one benefit: the STC station would effectively work for both lines, eliminating the need to build another pair of platforms with escalators etc. That's not insignificant, perhaps $200 to $300 million in savings, but hardly worth spending another $4+ billion.

 

[Rainforest]

^ However, I don't mind if they simply extend SSE to Sheppard, for better connectivity with buses coming from the north.