Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[OneCity]

Bus-ted.

Keep in mind detective i was referring to the impacts of all Transit City LRT lines including the SMLRT and SELRT. Which was little more than glorified bus, negatively impacting other modes, adding transfers our current buses dont have and not solving the real priorities.

Make no mistake from the Centre of Scarborough out our bus system is very good for local travel. Which is why most public transit users here travel locally only. What's not currently effective are the connections to the subway from many areas and the lack of RER. These were the priorities all along and were blatantly ignored. The bulk of Transit City didn't help much to solve this problem in addition to the negative impacts it carried over and introduced.

What also hasnt helped was the fight by outside Poltiicians to not work toward changing the ideologic, poorly designed LRT plan the last decade. Well not all bad the ignorance yielded us the most expensive, yet most effective subway line to replace the RT, a likely design start to finish Sheppard that we can build the express Bus, BRT and maybe more fancy LRT to complete the local network around

 

[Rainforest]

Fortunately, nobody takes the anti-SSE lobby seriously. Their statements are devoid of any logic.

One of them tried to "prove" that Finch / Kipling is as far from the center of the city as the outskirts of Scarborough. That nonsense was immediately disproved with data from TTC's trip planner, that showed a typical trip from Malvern Centre takes 15 min longer than a trip from Finch / Kipling.

Of course, they continue trying to mount the same pile of BS, ignoring all facts.

 

[kEiThZ]

Other than wider stop spacing The real time savings of a lrt comes at rush hour when there’s bumper to bumper traffic and the lrt is in its own lane. I don’t know how this detail can be marginalized. Countless times I have sat in traffic so frustrated transit didn’t have its own lane. The lrt offers that yet people act like it’s relatively trivial.

Do you need LRT for that though? Seems to me that you are mixing up ROW exclusivity and segregation with LRT. No reason that can't be done with buses. You could achieve the same with buses. Heck, just improve current bus service by putting down bus lanes and nice shelters, and that would do a lot. Added benefit: local buses can jump on the bus lanes and go express till they hit a station.

The only reason to push LRT itself was gentrification. Ridership that necessitates LRT is only believable on corridors like Eglinton. Even Sheppard, east of McCowan. What's the justification for LRT? Or Morningside?

 

[Hopkins123]

I agree.

The SSE, unfortunately, is not suburban rail.

But SmartTrack, up the very SRT corridor you think is only suitable for LRT operations, is. ST is supposed to be complimentary to SSE and combined serve more of Scarborough than just having one or the other service.

That's where you'd be completely wrong.

I'm not an LRT proponent - I'm a proponent of transit expansion that makes sense.

Could of fooled me. Ripping up SSE and going back to the drawing board to retool the LRT plan to suit 2018 sensibilities when the Stoufville corridor lands are already reserved for a second heavy rail trackbed is the exact opposite of "sense". And how any of this helps delivers rapid transit to Scarberians in a reasonable timeframe beats me. SSE could open as soon as 2026-2028 given the current rate of progress on the file.

I live in the city, travel all around it, and don't have a car. Transit is all I use.

Same here, but you and your cohorts seem to think all subway supporters must be gas-guzzlers and just want transit out of the way of their car, when in reality it's the bothersome nature of dealing with motorist traffic and lack of proper signal priority in an at grade road median transit context that's the root of most commuter delays on a daily basis.

I'm very, very familiar with the experience of traveling to and within Scarborough. I'm also familiar with the experience of traveling to and within Rexdale. I believe in the other SSE thread an SSE proponent suggested Rexdale transit riders are 'spoiled' relative to those who live in Scarborough. The reason I use Google map estimates is because they're standardized and can provide some actual perspective beyond make believe numbers from a poster who is prone to making things up.

I can't make up my own personal experiences. I got from John Garland and Finch to Kipling Stn on the 191 in around 25 minutes. Sorry if you don't believe me, but that's what happened. Try getting from the Tallpines area of Scarborough (Sheppard/Kingston) to downtown via TTC in under 90 minutes. I dare you.

Travel times for those 'spoiled' people in Rexdale are the same for the poor oppressed people of Scarborough. Does the estimated travel time differ from actual travel time on many occassions? Of course. But that's true for everyone, not just those living in Scarborough. Transit times downtown for those actually living in the city can be awful and uncomfortable. I recall a ride of nearly an hour from King & Bay to King & Dufferin, on packed streetcars (how often does the RT short turn?). That's not even a 4km trip.

Your own posts debunk this statement. You demonstrated in every scenario you posted previously that the commute times from Scarborough were in fact longer. Again, contrast West Rouge or Tallpines or Staines Rd residents to Rexdale, and it becomes abundantly clear which communities' residents are far more starved for good rapid transit connections, especially now in light that there's a new subway service as close as Jane and Steeles (or Keele and Finch) for Rexdalians to use.

I was in Scarborough this weekend, and we had a brief transit discussion - the idea of eliminating RT stops didn't sit well with people at all, who assumed the subway would somehow complement or replace that level of accessibility.

This is as anecdotal as my bus/subway travel time estimates, how are you not seeing your own hypocrisy? I'm sure the less than 1000 people a day using Ellesmere Stn are really aggrieved.

Unfortunately for many SSE proponents an honest and broad ranging discussion about transit isn't of interest, nor is addressing the reality that the SSE will make commutes worse for a lot of Scarberians and will do very, very little to improve that trip downtown.

This is the biggest lie of all. Most bus routes already divert into either Scarborough Town Centre or Kennedy Stn. How are most commuters any worse off by extending the subway to STC? The biggest realignment would be the Lawrence bus, but guess what, the new Progressive Conservative Government is committed to actually building the Lawrence East subway station, so no diversion required. Others like the Steeles and York Mills diversions into STC aren't big deals. Only an express version of the Steeles bus will go down McCowan just like the 199 Finch Rocket does. And the 95 east of McCowan could easily be taken over by the Highland Creek bus, with a new branch of the 38 running out to Kingston Rd.

Most commuters lives are improved by being spared the needless transfer at Kennedy. Once alighting at STC, one-seat direct travel to Yonge-Bloor in just over 30 minutes, compared to over 40 now.

 

[syn]

Νο. It isn’t. And instead of proposing suburban rail, the only alternative ever offered is LRT. Even now. There isn’t a single mayoral candidate saying, “We really need to change the transit system so that we can cut commute times to the core.”

And worse, somehow subway technology has become short hand for a whole lot of political symbolism. Conservatives are supposed to support subways. And progressives are supposed to support LRT. Rider convenience and system effectiveness be damned. Your supposed to pick your tech or politics and bundle it.

SmartTrack? RER?

SSE proponents are guilty of looking ahead to the addition of more stops and over promising the effects of the one-stop subway. And LRT proponents are guilty of presenting a few minutes of savings over a bus as some vast improvement in the transit experience.

If either side were truly acting out of some concern for Scarborough residents, both sides would be admitting that neither solution is appropriate for downtown bound commuters.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not sure I've ever seen that argument presented.

What I have seen presented is the idea that an LRT offers the best value for the ridership in question, far better accessibility, improved inter-Scarborough travel, and the best potential for future expansion.

Because the longest and most frequent trips we undertake are drivers for planning. How often does someone go to the Science Centre or Toronto Zoo?

And nobody is going to be all that concerned off the 20% you save them on their 25 min bus commute inside Scarborough. Saving them 20% on their 1.5 hr commute from Morningside and Finch to Union? That’s a noticeable difference.

According to city stats, only 23% of all transit trips beginning in Scarborough end downtown.

48% of them end in Scarborough.

That right there is the argument for a comprehensive LRT network and SmartTrack/RER combination.

 

[Hopkins123]

Bus-ted.

If I'm a OneCity sycophant, does that mean that you're a sixrings/syn sycophant?

 

[steveintoronto]

If I'm a OneCity sycophant, does that mean that you're a sixrings/syn sycophant?

Are you a second class citizen?

 

[syn]

I love how "the needs and experiences of others" are held up as sacrosanct yet mine are dismissed as "fiction" and "total nonsense" as if I am incapable of determining the distance and time duration I'm traveling while aboard these routes for myself. If you think an hour on the Finch bus from Morningside and Old Finch to Yonge and Finch followed by a 25 minute ride on the subway to Union Stn is normal and acceptable, then it is you who is sputtering total nonsense.

That you'd trivialize such a long bus commute and desire not to bring the subway network closer to eastern Scarborough (which anyone can plainly see is the most cut-off area from real rapid transit) makes you and your ilk part of the problem, not solution.

I'm referring to the honest needs and experiences of others - not made up numbers and situations to suit an agenda.

Your experience tells you that Rexdale transit riders are relatively 'spoiled', and that all the elderly women canes, mothers with strollers and the disabled are being oppressed by a transfer at Kennedy. In other words, your posts demonstrate a complete disconnect with reality.

Outer Scarborough transit times to Yonge Station aren't really much different from those in other outlying areas of the city.

Let me guess - Rexdale doesn't have any old ladies, so transfers and long bus rides don't matter?

 

[kEiThZ]

Fortunately, nobody takes the anti-SSE lobby seriously. Their statements are devoid of any logic.

One of them tried to "prove" that Finch / Kipling is as far from the center of the city as the outskirts of Scarborough. That nonsense was immediately disproved with data from TTC's trip planner, that showed a typical trip from Malvern Centre takes 15 min longer than a trip from Finch / Kipling.

Of course, they continue trying to mount the same pile of BS, ignoring all facts.

I get your frustration. I don't know why anybody would make such a nonsensical comparison. It's as though people have never actually looked at a map of Toronto.

Finch and Kipling is freaking luxury service. Subway station 8 km away. Only one transfer (bus to subway) needed to get to the core. And that 8 km will be an LRT as well in a few years. In a few years time, traveling from Finch/Kipling to Union will be all rail service, with only one transfer and probably take about an hour, from the 1h 21 mins today.

Compare this to the options for Malvern Mall:
Single transfer ride? Finch station is 17 km away.
Triple transfer ride? McCowan/SC is 5.5 km away.

In theory, the planner shows a close travel time. Depdending on route. In reality, the transfers just create more points of missed connections and cascade delays. 1.5 hrs is just common.

It's basic geography, Line 1 goes deep enough into the West to make a difference. To achieve the same geographic balance in the subway network, you'd need the DRL Long on Vic Park at minimum (still 10 km away from Malvern Mall...2km further than Kipling is from Finch West). And even then, with the DRL running under Queen, it'd be two transfer ride to Union. Were DRL Long actually on the cards today, there'd be less support for the SSE. But then you look at the likelihood of the DRL reaching Sheppard or Finch in our lifetimes, and it's easy to see why pushing for a short extension from Kennedy becomes so attractive. It's one less pain point in that daily commute.

 

[syn]

I get your frustration. I don't know why anybody would make such a nonsensical comparison. It's as though people have never actually looked at a map of Toronto.

Finch and Kipling is freaking luxury service. Subway station 8 km away. Only one transfer (bus to subway) needed to get to the core. And that 8 km will be an LRT as well in a few years. In a few years time, traveling from Finch/Kipling to Union will be all rail service, with only one transfer and probably take about an hour, from the 1h 21 mins today.

Compare this to the options for Malvern Mall:
Single transfer ride? Finch station is 17 km away.
Triple transfer ride? McCowan/SC is 5.5 km away.

In theory, the planner shows a close travel time. Depdending on route. In reality, the transfers just create more points of missed connections and cascade delays. 1.5 hrs is just common.

It's basic geography, Line 1 goes deep enough into the West to make a difference. To achieve the same geographic balance in the subway network, you'd need the DRL Long on Vic Park at minimum (still 10 km away from Malvern Mall...2km further than Kipling is from Finch West). And even then, with the DRL running under Queen, it'd be two transfer ride to Union. Were DRL Long actually on the cards today, there'd be less support for the SSE. But then you look at the likelihood of the DRL reaching Sheppard or Finch in our lifetimes, and it's easy to see why pushing for a short extension from Kennedy becomes so attractive. It's one less pain point in that daily commute.

In a few years time getting from Malvern Town Centre to Union will be a single transfer affair too.

One bus to the Finch-Kennedy RER/SmartTrack station and then you go straight to Union.

 

[kEiThZ]

In a few years time

I first moved to Malvern in 1992. Back then there was talk of extending the SRT from McCowan to the edge of Malvern (@ Markham/Sheppard) or even to Malvern Town Centre itself. People have been talking about all kinds of plans for that long. Hence, why there's no credibility for any pledged plan today.

And much as I like RER and see it as a real alternative to subway extensions, let's be honest. Most of the public doesn't know what it is. And most of our politicians aren't at all interested in actually pushing it forward. Tory sort of tried with Smart Track. Only to be lambasted for it. Heck, done right, Smart Track could have actually given him (and everybody else involved) an out on the subway extension. Heck, even candidates like Keesmat don't talk up RER. And there's no push from Toronto Councillors and mayoral candidates for RER to be implemented with urgency and with full fare and feeder bus service integration.

So is it any surprise that a lot of people have grasped on to the SSE?

 

[kEiThZ]

SmartTrack? RER?

Are any of them as close to getting actual shovels in the ground as the SSE? And will they be as integrated into the TTC and its feeder bus service as the SSE? That's what matters to people.

Bird in hand principle.

According to city stats, only 23% of all transit trips beginning in Scarborough end downtown.

48% of them end in Scarborough.

Again, ignoring what I said about travel times. It's hard to take critics seriously when they deliberately choose to ignore this point. The nearly half of all trips that end in Scarborough are not as long as the nearly quarter of all trips that end up in the core. And those core bound trips are substantially longer. This is why I said those trips become planning drivers.

Most people, even those jetting around Scarborough don't really care about you knocking off 5-10 min off their 30-40 minute trips inside Scarborough. It's really not going to make that much of a difference. They care a lot more if you can knock off 15 mins from their 1.5 hr downtown commute though. It's the compounded comfort factor. It's the higher total time saved. etc. Planners and a lot of politicians have consistently failed to understand this.

 

[syn]

I first moved to Malvern in 1992. Back then there was talk of extending the SRT from McCowan to the edge of Malvern (@ Markham/Sheppard) or even to Malvern Town Centre itself. People have been talking about all kinds of plans for that long. Hence, why there's no credibility for any pledged plan today.

And much as I like RER and see it as a real alternative to subway extensions, let's be honest. Most of the public doesn't know what it is. And most of our politicians aren't at all interested in actually pushing it forward. Tory sort of tried with Smart Track. Only to be lambasted for it. Heck, done right, Smart Track could have actually given him (and everybody else involved) an out on the subway extension. Heck, even candidates like Keesmat don't talk up RER. And there's no push from Toronto Councillors and mayoral candidates for RER to be implemented with urgency and with full fare and feeder bus service integration.

So is it any surprise that a lot of people have grasped on to the SSE?

Then why is the Finch LRT being implemented into the discussion as though it's guaranteed to be built?

To ignore SmartTrack/RER seems rather disingenuous. It's about as legit as any other major transit plan currently being discussed. It'll provide a lot of Scarborough residents with stations a direct connection to Union (along with a few other downtown stops) just minutes away.

The DRL has been on the planning books for many decades - should we just assume it'll never be built?

Again, ignoring what I said about travel times. It's hard to take critics seriously when they deliberately choose to ignore this point. The nearly half of all trips that end in Scarborough are not as long as the nearly quarter of all trips that end up in the core. And those core bound trips are substantially longer. This is why I said those trips become planning drivers.

I'm not ignoring it at all - but travel times are relative, and I'd argue that travel times during the busiest periods are not going to see a massive drop at all with the SSE, especially with the longer transfer from bus to subway and the increased reliance on buses.

We also need to deal with the reality of travel - and the fact of the matter is, 77% of people using transit in Scarborough are not going downtown.

I'd also argue a rider saving 10 minutes on a 30 minute trip is going to notice the difference a lot more than a rider saving 15 minutes on a 1.5 hour trip - I can certainly say that's my experience.

 

[kEiThZ]

Then why is the Finch LRT being implemented into the discussion as though it's guaranteed to be built?

To ignore SmartTrack/RER seems rather disingenuous. It's about as legit as any other major transit plan currently being discussed. It'll provide a lot of Scarborough residents with stations a direct connection to Union (along with a few other downtown stops) just minutes away.

The DRL has been on the planning books for many decades - should we just assume it'll never be built?

Bit of whataboutism here. And here's the thing, if you've lived in Scarborough for 10 or 20 or 30 years, you aren't likely to care about what else is being built, unless it impacts you. The fact that there hasn't been progress for 30 years, now makes them very likely to support politicians who say, "Enough is enough. We're building this come hell or high water."

Like I said earlier, I don't agree with it. But I absolutely understand where this sentiment comes from.

We also need to deal with the reality of travel - and the fact of the matter is, 77% of people using transit in Scarborough are not going downtown.

I'd also argue a rider saving 10 minutes on a 30 minute trip is going to notice the difference a lot more than a rider saving 15 minutes on a 1.5 hour trip - I can certainly say that's my experience.

There's a reason why downtown bound transit is such a touchstone and nobody in Scarborough is clamouring for you to knock 5 mins off their bus ride. You can argue that it shouldn't be that way. But it is. People tend to value time in absolute return not relative. It's why very few people will care about what you can do for them inside Scarborough.

To begin with, I would argue that probably half of all riders (if I had to wag it) won't touch an LRT while traveling inside Scarborough. And then if they do, they may not be on there for a long enough distance to benefit more than a few minutes. Or they end up incurring an extra transfer to use an LRT. So with that in mind, the idea that LRT offers great benefit to 77% of transit users in Scarborough is a stretch.

And again, a lot of those benefits can be accrued by simply implementing bus lanes, bus priority, etc. Why is LRT specifically needed? If LRT runs at 25 kph average, and bus at 15 kph, why is it not possible to boost buses to 20 kph average by putting in bus lanes and signal priority? Moreover, bus lanes can be implemented in more corridors that are important to Scarborough itself (like Kennedy, McCowan, Vic Park), than the East-West corridors that are important city wide.

I agree that the subway won't do much to cut commute time. It's why I've argued that suburban rail needs to happen. But I suspect the comfort factor and cut of a transfer is playing a role in keeping the SSE attractive. And it's not going to get less attractive until RER is more than hypothetical.

 

[BurlOak]

According to city stats, only 23% of all transit trips beginning in Scarborough end downtown.

48% of them end in Scarborough.

That right there is the argument for a comprehensive LRT network and SmartTrack/RER combination.

What are the stats for the other boroughs?

On the face of it, I'd say it's an argument for buses. If people are only going a few stop local - the LRT inconvenience of fewer stop and lower frequency offset and speed advantage of LRT vs. bus.

People were crying out for improved Rapid Transit and David Miller proposed marginally improved local transit.