Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[gweed123]

Have you thought about how frequent the STC Branch and the Markham Branch need to be. I would guess at worst 10 minute frequency (6 trains per hour) on each, maybe 6 minutes (10 trains) would be better. (Maybe 12 minute SmartTrack overlapped with 12 minute GO RER would work.)

I see no problem with building the Ellesmere to STC, Centennial and Malvern portion. The Ellesmere tunnel would have to be rebuilt. Most assume that the elevated track needs to be replaced, maybe the piers as well. Maybe a cost of about $250M would be needed for the 8km to Malvern. That is $2B.

From Ellesmere to Kennedy, there would be 3 stations, plus 3 minute frequency trains (each way). This can probably still work.
From Kennedy to St. Clair, there are no stations so there is no problem as long as that portion can be double tracked (stacked?)
So all that needs to be worked out is how to handle the LSE corridor when some LSE RER trains (and diesel ones) are added to the mix.

Gweed, you are a smart guy - have you put any effort into solving this problem?

I've given it some thought, yes. The pinch point with this proposal is the Lakeshore East corridor and the Stouffville corridor south of Kennedy. You can widen the Stouffville corridor, but the Lakeshore East corridor will need to be very tightly scheduled in order to work.

For the purposes of this, I'm going to break it down between Red Line (SmartTrack) and Green Line (GO RER) services. In reality though, SmartTrack is just the 416 sub-service of GO RER. The way I see it breaking down is this:

During Peak:
-10 min Green Line service from Mt. Joy
-10 min Red Line service from Unionville
-10 min Green Line service from Malvern or Seaton (depending on if the Province wants to chip in to extend it further)
-10 min Red Line service from STC to downtown via the Central Tunnel
-10 min Special Shuttle service from Malvern to Kennedy

Outside of Peak:
-20 min Green Line service from Mt. Joy
-15 min Red Line service from Unionville
-15 min Green Line service from Malvern or Seaton
-15 min Red Line service from STC

The Special Shuttle during peak is key, because it allows Scarborough riders who are either doing intra-Scarborough trips or are connecting to B-D or the ECLRT to have their own train, to avoid crowding downtown-bound trains. It also means fewer trains are required to use the southern Stouffville and the Lakeshore East corridors.

 

[44 North]

Ah, I like the idea of this Special Shuttle train. That's what I feel UPX always should've been. Or in the future, for an infrequent crosstown service involving the Midtown corridor. There are probably other places in the GO system such an idea could work.

 

[CDL.TO]

I support the gonzo option: Via Markham Road but not intermediate stops between Kennedy and STC.

 

[CDL.TO]

Haven't seen this version of the map posted yet.

There are a large number of options. The public, council, and planners need to prioritize their goals before this can be figured out.

It seems to me that the only true goals are to serve STC and literally anywhere on Sheppard Ave E. If we need to build a subway, we should choose the option which serves those two locations for the lowest cost.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

SSE is evolving from a complete replacement of Line 3, into something that is replacing the west half of the Scarborough-Malvern LRT, before doubling back to Scarborough Town Centre and replacing the north half of Line 3.

Alternatively, I propose the following:

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Take out all the stops except for STC, Sheppard and Kennedy. As CLD.TO said, the goal of SSE is to have stations at those locations.

 

[Edward Skira]

That's the line we really need!

 

[CDL.TO]

Clearly that option in unacceptable. It doesn't serve the aquatic centre. That facility is going to generate dozens of trips a day. DOZENS!

 

[nfitz]

I'd like to draw attention the what I proposed here years ago. Extend Line 2 (replacing Line 3) up towards Scarborough Centre, but loop backwards, so you enter the existing station heading westbound, then continue to join up to Line 4. Then extend Line 4 to Downsview, but head north, and then south, to join Line 1 using the existing Downsview platform (the extra tunnel to do this will be cheaper than a new platform at Downsview).

And thus, we simplify numbering by having only one subway line. The Yonge-University-Spadina-Sheppard-Scarborough-Danforth-Bloor line.

Though it's not quite as simple now that someone has gone and extended the Spadina line ... but it can still work as Line 1 having 2 branches.

(no, I'm not serious ... but somedays I fear this will actually happen!).

 

[crs1026]

I can't see anything but good on the political front if Tory remains non-committal and low-key until the report is released.

Whatever is recommended, he can then amend his position towards it, on the premise that it's best to let the experts do the planning.

If people accuse him of not following through on his original idea for Smarttrack, he can say he's bowing to more intensive and expert advice, in the best interests of the City. (Nobody can definitively differentiate RER and Smarttrack, anyways, so he has the wiggle room to say it's what he intended all along.)

Then if anyone on Council gets in the way, he can accuse them of putting their own interests (whatever those be) above sound objective planning.

- Paul

 

[Tulse]

we simplify numbering by having only one subway line. The Yonge-University-Spadina-Sheppard-Scarborough-Danforth-Bloor line.

Your proposal needs to include a Moebius strip for the track, so we can actually double the capacity of the system!

 

[Tulse]

I'm not clear how problematic the alleged "cannibalization" would be between Smarttrack and a Scarborough line. How many stops would Smarttrack have in the overlapping area?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Your proposal needs to include a Moebius strip for the track, so we can actually double the capacity of the system!

Well, the trains would have to be running upside down at some point in that case.

AoD

 

[gweed123]

Ah, I like the idea of this Special Shuttle train. That's what I feel UPX always should've been. Or in the future, for an infrequent crosstown service involving the Midtown corridor. There are probably other places in the GO system such an idea could work.

For rush hour at least, it certainly makes sense. A lot of riders will be bound for downtown, in which case the Red and Green Line services are perfect for them. But if they're bound for inside Scarborough, or are connecting to local rapid transit at Kennedy, then diverting those riders off of downtown-bound trains certainly makes sense.

The other place on the GO system where this type of configuration would make a tonne of sense would be on the Kitchener-Guelph corridor. This is especially true if the GO line is extended to a station in west Kitchener (Ira Needles, perhaps), and an infill station put in around Breslau. The current GO service could provide service into the GTHA, while the "Shuttle" would provide a more frequent overlapping service specifically for K-W and Guelph.

 

[robmausser]

The only options that I see being worth any merit in Scarb are these, in order of logical sense:

1. Go back to the Scarborough LRT, and remove stations for Smarttrack at Lawrence East and Ellesmere. Smarttrack price goes down, becomes faster option and we build something that has a completed EA and is ready to be built ASAP for the cheapest price. This is the best option.

2. Spur line of Smarttrack to STC.

3. Extend the Sheppard Subway to STC. Connection to Smarttrack via Agincourt GO.

Notice how all options do not have a Scarborough subway...