Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[WislaHD]

Bang on. Both "sides" in this debate get what they want. It would have the coverage of the LRT option, the cost of the LRT option, and the convenience of the subway option (no transfer at Kennedy).

Not to mention the fact that SmartTrack would reach Downtown MUCH MUCH MUCH faster than a subway would.

Subways or LRTs makes no difference, it is still 1h+ commute (factoring in bus transfers) for Scarberians. Only SmartTrack would radically improve their commute times.

 

[nfitz]

Not to mention the fact that SmartTrack would reach Downtown MUCH MUCH MUCH faster than a subway would.

Would it? It might get you to Union Station a bit faster ... but the busiest Yonge line station for people arriving in AM Peak is Dundas.

Even now, Kennedy to Union only stopping at Danforth is 24 minutes. It might be a bit faster with electrification, but after you add stops at Scarborough, Gerrard Square, Queen, Unilever ... and now talk of one at Sherbourne, it won't be any faster - probably slower.

So 24 minutes (or longer) to Union and then a long walk to the subway, compared to only 22 minutes currently (presumably faster after they get ATC running) from Kennedy to Bloor/Yonge.

I'm not seeing how this MUCH MUCH MUCH faster works. Probably slower for many people. And that's not even counting the much longer wait for the SmartTrack, which won't be running every 2 minutes like the BD line does at peak.

 

[WislaHD]

I was factoring the departure point being STC rather than Kennedy.

Still, I was under the impression that Scarborough commutes were significantly longer. Maybe the current state of the SRT clouded my perception.

 

[k10ery]

I don't recall any significant objections. Nor do I recall it being killed. The 2010 reversal of the McGuinty promise of full funding from Sheppard to Malvern didn't seem to be related to resident's complaints.

The completed EA used that alignment, and it's been protected since at least the 1980s.

Semantics. As I recall it, the NIMBYs wanted the extension to have a large underground component, which forced costs up sufficient to make cancellation inevitable.

 

[robmausser]

Forget about the LRT.

What I want is a spur of SmartTrack using the SRT corridor to reach STC and further on to Malvern and future Seaton. The province and Feds are devoted to funding a subway, not an LRT. Tory is selling his SmartTrack as a surface subway.

I also think this idea is the best solution.

Smarttrack Spur to STC, with a stop at Centennial College, stop at Sheppard, then continue on (Belleville?) sub to Malvern Center.

Use money that was towards Scarb subway for Malvern LRT and acceleration of Sheppard LRT.

 

[nfitz]

As I recall it, the NIMBYs wanted the extension to have a large underground component, which forced costs up sufficient to make cancellation inevitable.

I have no recollection of this, and do not believe it played any part in the 2010 postponement.

 

[BurlOak]

Forget about the LRT.

What I want is a spur of SmartTrack using the SRT corridor to reach STC and further on to Malvern and future Seaton. The province and Feds are devoted to funding a subway, not an LRT. Tory is selling his SmartTrack as a surface subway.

The bottleneck is not between Ellesmere and Kennedy, it is farther south. Either South of Kennedy, or along the LSE line.

From Kennedy to St. Clair, There will be 6 trains per hour from STC. Another 6 from Agincourt. Then there would be maybe 3 GO RER trains and 4 other diesel GO trains. How will 18+ train per hour per direction fit on a single track (although I think this can have another track added)?

The on LSE to DVP, you have the above 15 electrified trains per hour (per direction), plus another 4 GO RER from Lakeshore. That is 20 trains per hour, all stopping at a few stations along the way. Plus there is the +/-4 diesel GO from Markham and +/-6 from Lakshore as well.

The part north of Kennedy is the easy part.

 

[k10ery]

I have no recollection of this, and do not believe it played any part in the 2010 postponement.

Well, don't worry, it was quite a while ago. To refresh your memory you could read the 2010 Environmental Project Report, which clearly states that the route to Malvern along the corridor should be underground, and also why. Of course that made the extension far more expensive.

 

[nfitz]

Well, don't worry, it was quite a while ago. To refresh your memory you could read the 2010 Environmental Project Report, which clearly states that the route to Malvern along the corridor should be underground, and also why. Of course that made the extension far more expensive.

There were two options, elevated, and below grade. The EA noted that the above-grade option would result in a high adverse effect on the existing community due to potential noise impacts, visual issues and loss of park/open space. The end result was below grade, though it doesn't massively add to cost, given there are no stations in this segment, and Malvern station would still have been above grade.

I'm sure comments were made at the community meetings, but the need to grade separate it, always meant it was going to be costly. And I think that's been recognized since the 1980s. I certainly don't think that it was the NIMBYs that forced it underground. And I don't think that is what lead to it's deferral. When they deferred it, they identified that segment would cost $386 million in $2010. They also deferred the cheaper and longer segment of the Sheppard East LRT from Morningside to Meadowvale which was only to have cost $100 million. And they deferred the more expensive pieces of the Finch LRT ($460 million from Keele to Yonge) and Eglinton LRT ($467 million from Jane to Renforth). It was all about cutting sections of the line to save money. If that was only budgeted at $150 million, I expect it would still have seen the axe.

 

[gweed123]

I'm sure comments were made at the community meetings, but the need to grade separate it, always meant it was going to be costly. And I think that's been recognized since the 1980s. I certainly don't think that it was the NIMBYs that forced it underground. And I don't think that is what lead to it's deferral. When they deferred it, they identified that segment would cost $386 million in $2010. They also deferred the cheaper and longer segment of the Sheppard East LRT from Morningside to Meadowvale which was only to have cost $100 million. And they deferred the more expensive pieces of the Finch LRT ($460 million from Keele to Yonge) and Eglinton LRT ($467 million from Jane to Renforth). It was all about cutting sections of the line to save money. If that was only budgeted at $150 million, I expect it would still have seen the axe.

Yup. In 2010, all of the 4 Transit City lines that were going ahead at the time got some part of them axed. Eglinton got the western end axed. Finch West got the section from Finch West Stn to Finch Stn axed. Sheppard East got from Morningside to Meadowvale axed, and the Scarborough LRT got from Sheppard to Malvern axed. I would venture to say that the only reason the SLRT was even going to Sheppard was to access the Conlins Yard. If not they probably would have just extended it to Centennial and been done with it.

 

[WislaHD]

The bottleneck is not between Ellesmere and Kennedy, it is farther south. Either South of Kennedy, or along the LSE line.

From Kennedy to St. Clair, There will be 6 trains per hour from STC. Another 6 from Agincourt. Then there would be maybe 3 GO RER trains and 4 other diesel GO trains. How will 18+ train per hour per direction fit on a single track (although I think this can have another track added)?

The on LSE to DVP, you have the above 15 electrified trains per hour (per direction), plus another 4 GO RER from Lakeshore. That is 20 trains per hour, all stopping at a few stations along the way. Plus there is the +/-4 diesel GO from Markham and +/-6 from Lakshore as well.

The part north of Kennedy is the easy part.

Sounds like an engineering challenge to be overcome.

On the plus side, ~3 minute frequencies is very subway like. Do you think the tracks would not be able to handle so many trains per hour? What can be done to alleviate these concerns? Can the money saved from scrapping the Scarborough Subway or from cutting the Eglinton spur of SmartTrack fund these track improvements?

-----

As an aside, once it reaches the DVP I would have SmartTrack trains go through a downtown tunnel and the GO-RER trains go to Union. Provided we build a downtown tunnel for the DRL. (My personal DRL solution is scrapping subway plans and having a second SmartTrack line on the Richmond Hill GO-RER line, have Richmond SmartTrack and Scarborough SmartTrack head to a downtown tunnel, providing high level of frequency in the downtown core. Platform ideas for Tory 2018 anyone?)

 

[Cobra]

John Tory interview getting grilled on the Gardiner and public transit.

-At the 16 minute mark (Scarborough Subway)


[video=youtube;YdHUUcK8PEg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdHUUcK8PEg[/video]

 

[M II A II R II K]

Perhaps make Ellesmere station on the SmartTrack the main Scarborough hub at Kennedy instead of STC. Then Ellesmere would go from being the least used stations to one of the busiest.

In fact the RT route from Ellesmere to STC could be kept to at least provide a shuttle service from a new Ellesmere to STC, and if there are any aspirations to make such a line longer to go to Centennial and stuff they could convert that stretch to Transit City LRT.

 

[k10ery]

There were two options, elevated, and below grade. The EA noted that the above-grade option would result in a high adverse effect on the existing community due to potential noise impacts, visual issues and loss of park/open space. The end result was below grade, though it doesn't massively add to cost, given there are no stations in this segment, and Malvern station would still have been above grade.

I'm sure comments were made at the community meetings, but the need to grade separate it, always meant it was going to be costly. And I think that's been recognized since the 1980s. I certainly don't think that it was the NIMBYs that forced it underground. And I don't think that is what lead to it's deferral. When they deferred it, they identified that segment would cost $386 million in $2010. They also deferred the cheaper and longer segment of the Sheppard East LRT from Morningside to Meadowvale which was only to have cost $100 million. And they deferred the more expensive pieces of the Finch LRT ($460 million from Keele to Yonge) and Eglinton LRT ($467 million from Jane to Renforth). It was all about cutting sections of the line to save money. If that was only budgeted at $150 million, I expect it would still have seen the axe.

I'm amazed about your ability to go on arguing a point, long after you and everybody else has forgotten what the point of the argument is.

In this case, due to community objections, a decision was made to run 2 km of a LRT line underground, underneath an existing reserved transit corridor. I stated that this caused costs of the project to rise, and the same thing would happen if there were an attempt to run a SmartTrack line on the same route.

You are not seriously disputing that, are you?

(Oh God, why do I bait the troll.)

 

[nfitz]

In this case, due to community objections, a decision was made to run 2 km of a LRT line underground, underneath an existing reserved transit corridor. I stated that this caused costs of the project to rise, and the same thing would happen if there were an attempt to run a SmartTrack line on the same route.

You are not seriously disputing that, are you?

'm not buying that the underground option was chosen simply because of community objections. Given that it didn't lead to any additional underground stations and only a relatively small price increase, it's pretty clear looking at the photos in the reports going back over a decade, that it's a better solution. Looking at the evaluation chart, there are other benefits to underground that had nothing to do with the community.

However, primarily I'm disputing your initial claim that it was the NIMBYs that forced up costs sufficient enough to make cancellation inevitable.

(Oh God, why do I bait the troll.)

I really don't see anything here that justifies such continuing condescension or rudeness from you.