New Transit Funding Sources

[andrewpmk]

Yes and no. There needs to be some tolling today, no doubt. But the 2nd half of that is to have the necessary transit infrastructure in place to handle the people who will switch to it. As of right now, that infrastructure isn't in place. When GO service gets expanded and whatever Transit City/Ford Plan/Stintz Plan elements get implemented, then we can talk about a large-scale tolling scheme.

But until that time, all you're going to do is piss people off, because you aren't giving them a real viable alternative. The way I see it happening is GO does all the prep work for all-day two-way frequent service on it's lines, and all on one day that service comes online, and a region-wide highway tolling scheme comes online too. Make the clear distinction that "we have improved transit now, so now you have no excuse not to take it". And then use the revenues generated from the tolling to fund Phase 2 of the transit expansion (the DRL, the WWLRT, all those 905 BRT projects, etc).

If you're going to use a stick to try and get people to switch modes, you damn well better make that mode more appealing, and able to handle the influx of new passengers.

I think it is better to start tolling immediately because if we plan to borrow money and toll in the future, then some right wing politician will come into power and discontinue tolling. If we toll now, people will see the benefits of tolling (less traffic congestion). Plus in the short term, there is the possibility of expanded express bus service using the newly tolled roads (e.g. expanding the GO bus service to North York Centre via Highway 401) and people can adapt to tolls by commuting less. Though to ease the transition, we would probably want to introduce tolls gradually - e.g. a peak hour rate of 10 cents a km now, with increases to 15 cents/km in rush hour once certain transit projects open, and with the peak hour toll rates remaining considerably below the 25.2 cents/km+60 cents Highway 407 charges (i.e. set so that we will accept mild rush hour traffic congestion but avoiding severe congestion).

 

[Electrify]

Of course it also has one obvious shortcoming when compared to road tolls......it can be avoided just by filling up outside of the gas tax area....so if it were a 416 tax...people could cross the street to 905 to fill up. If you extend the tax area to the 905 those areas are gonna want their share of the revenue so the city may not achieve what it is trying to.

Agreed, and one of the reasons why I was against the VRT. Just live a side street north of Steeles, and you're exempt.

Implement the gas tax in all municipalities where GO runs service, and you should be good. Maybe reduce it gradually as you get further out, so that those in edge cities (Peterborough, Barrie, etc.) don't drive out to the next township just to save a few bucks.

 

[ssiguy2]

I think the concern is, that the kickback from voters would be even worse than on the vehicle tax.
This is exactly what Vancouver is doing to fund the Skytrain extensions. Doesn't seem to be causing much uproar, even though they were so sensitive to the HST, and already have higher gas taxes than we do. Might be the asnwer.

I think the thought was they would be corporate taxes, not individual taxes. Like the existing Ontario Employer Tax, or the employer contributions to EI (which is higher than what individuals pay) and CPP.

You are exactly right about Vancouver.
Translink is responsible for all transportation in Greater Vancouver which includes bikeways, pathways, roads, and transit. They view them as each part of a whole system, something Toronto can't seem to get it's head around. This is why the Canada Line bridge over the Fraser has an lower level for pedestrians and bikes and has a total 15km HOV/Bus lane leading into it for suburban buses. You would NEVER get that kind of coordination in Toronto.
People in Vancouver already pay one of the highest gasoline prices in Canada and much of that is due to the Translink. No one loves it but they know that if the city is to prosper and stay on the move with all forms of improved transportation then there is little option.
The reason why they tolerate the Translink taxes and not the HST is because Translink taxes are accountable. Translink is only responsible for transportation so you know that 100% of the funds are going precisely towards that. HST however is just a provincial tax grab where only god knows where the money will be spent.

Also.........I never got an answer to my question..............if the city wanted to raise mega-bucks could it simply sell the DVP or Gardiner and let the private company do with it as they will whether that be tolls or even tearing some of it down for condos as long as it doesn't effect parkland like the DVP north of King?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

You are exactly right about Vancouver.
Translink is responsible for all transportation in Greater Vancouver which includes bikeways, pathways, roads, and transit. They view them as each part of a whole system, something Toronto can't seem to get it's head around. This is why the Canada Line bridge over the Fraser has an lower level for pedestrians and bikes and has a total 15km HOV/Bus lane leading into it for suburban buses. You would NEVER get that kind of coordination in Toronto.
People in Vancouver already pay one of the highest gasoline prices in Canada and much of that is due to the Translink. No one loves it but they know that if the city is to prosper and stay on the move with all forms of improved transportation then there is little option.
The reason why they tolerate the Translink taxes and not the HST is because Translink taxes are accountable. Translink is only responsible for transportation so you know that 100% of the funds are going precisely towards that. HST however is just a provincial tax grab where only god knows where the money will be spent.

Also.........I never got an answer to my question..............if the city wanted to raise mega-bucks could it simply sell the DVP or Gardiner and let the private company do with it as they will whether that be tolls or even tearing some of it down for condos as long as it doesn't effect parkland like the DVP north of King?

That is a one time shot in the arm.

 

[nfitz]

The biggest problem with tolling the 401, beside the fact that it is a provincial road, is that there are people using it to bypass the city completely. For example, a family on a road trip from Buffalo to Ottawa would end up paying the toll to the city, even though they spent no money here and and used none of its services.

This isn't a problem. This is a bonus!

There's no reason from someone driving from Buffalo to Ottawa to take the 401. It's a hour faster to take the thruway and come up I-81. If it takes tolls to make people avoid the 401 then this is a good thing to reduce congestion.

Even if they were coming from say - London - why not use the 407 instead - it's invariably faster to get through Toronto ... especially when they finish it to the east. Wait - it's tolled. So at the moment we are using tolling to encourage people to use the 401?

 

[andrewpmk]

This isn't a problem. This is a bonus!

There's no reason from someone driving from Buffalo to Ottawa to take the 401. It's a hour faster to take the thruway and come up I-81. If it takes tolls to make people avoid the 401 then this is a good thing to reduce congestion.

Even if they were coming from say - London - why not use the 407 instead - it's invariably faster to get through Toronto ... especially when they finish it to the east. Wait - it's tolled. So at the moment we are using tolling to encourage people to use the 401?

Don't want to pay the road toll? Take the train. Problem solved.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

http://www.thestar.com/news/article...d-to-pay-for-sheppard-subway-report-concludes

 

[rfid]

Don't want to pay the road toll? Take the train. Problem solved.

Exactly! It is an interdependent effect of tolling. Some cannot pay. Some will not pay. The individual decides what is worth it and may decide to take transit, use other roads, pay the toll, leave the region, etc.

Whatever revenue source, we need to ensure it is actually directed this time to transit and not general revenue. Only then is it more pallatable, even though it's the same dollars.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Don't want to pay the road toll? Take the train. Problem solved.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Don't want to pay the road toll? Take the train. Problem solved.

Don't want to pay the road toll but don't want to take the train either? Take the side streets. Problem created

 

[Hipster Duck]

Don't want to pay the road toll but don't want to take the train either? Take the side streets. Problem created

You would have to be a sucker for punishment and/or be rabidly against tolls to the point of shooting yourself in the foot to do that. Time is money, so the time savings you get from traveling down a tolled highway far exceed the cost of the tolls. Very few people would voluntarily drive down highway 7 from Markham to Brampton to avoid paying the tolls on the 407.

 

[Hipster Duck]

My preference for funding sources, in order:

Road tolls - targets congestion directly

Gas tax - targets the people who are responsible for congestion (drivers), but does not address congestion directly. Because you pay based on how much you drive, it is a much fairer assessment of how much your behaviour contributes to congestion and wear and tear on the roadways (see cons of VRT, below).

Tax increment financing - a novel idea, but cannot recoup the costs of rapid transit expansion on its own. Also suggests that we should build lines where we can develop the most real estate, not based on travel demand.

Vehicle registration tax - regressive; targets drivers, but targets all drivers equally regardless of how much they contribute to congestion or wear and tear on the roadways.

Dedicated Sales tax - incredibly regressive; targets all members of society equally, regardless of ability to pay or even if they contribute to traffic congestion at all. Hurts industries and businesses that might actually be trying to help the situation. If I buy a bike, I should be paying the same tax to support transit construction as some guy who buys 22" rims for his Escalade?

 

[M II A II R II K]

Transit should venture into the private sector and partner up with itself.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Rob & Doug Ford and others only want subways ( read underground electric railways) and nothing else. If they go to the surface and travel along the surface, that is a no-no. Cheaper forms of rapid transit, no don't want to consider it. They must be out of sight. There will always be some private organization that will pay for it, because Rob Ford says so. We all want subways, therefore we will only consider subways. There maybe other forms of rapid transit available at a more cost effective and less expensive construction, but we want subways, and only subways.

We are in trouble with that sort of thinking.

 

[rfid]

Rob & Doug Ford and others only want subways ( read underground electric railways) and nothing else. If they go to the surface and travel along the surface, that is a no-no. Cheaper forms of rapid transit, no don't want to consider it. They must be out of sight. There will always be some private organization that will pay for it, because Rob Ford says so. We all want subways, therefore we will only consider subways. There maybe other forms of rapid transit available at a more cost effective and less expensive construction, but we want subways, and only subways.

We are in trouble with that sort of thinking.

That doesn't even sound like thinking!

Realistically, we designed the system such that all but the poorest can afford to drive (and it reflects in the driving skills). In fact, it's too easy for everyone to drive given the amount of financing incentives available. It's always been like that and it takes a lot to change that mentality.

While I'm not opposed to road tolls directed towards transit expansion, think about our goal: to make driving unaffordable or to make transit compete with the convenience of driving. It's an open ended question and even I would need to give it more thought to come up with solutions. It's not an easy task.