Palma
Senior Member
Ford was against tolls when he was running for mayor (and Sarah Thomson had tolls as part of her platforms for subways), yet now just to get Sheppard subways Ford is for tolls? Unreal.
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New Transit Funding Sources
- Thread starter denfromoakvillemilton
- Start date
nfitz
Superstar
Ford made it 100% clear today he was against tolls. Why are you saying he's for tolls?
ssiguy2
Senior Member
I'm curious.................if the city really wanted mega bucks could it actually seel the Gardiner or DVP outright and then let the prospective buyers charge what they want, upkeep the roads and even sell some of the ROW along the route except where it goes thru parkland like the DVP north of King?
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
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He has to do that publically nfitz... you know he is shaking on the inside of city hall...
Palma
Senior Member
I did not listen to any news today and got online tonight and read people talking about the tolls and what they should be .... and also the fact that someone he appointed to study the Sheppard situation comes out and says tolls knowing Ford would not wants them so whats up with that? But now that we are at it I bet by having someone who has studied the situation come out and say "tolls" as may other people in the city are saying I bet just to get that Sheppard subway built Ford would and say "well studies have shown we needs tolls" and then we will get rid of them. And the public has been hearing so much about tolls in the last 2 years they are more prepared for them. And by the way Ford said no service cuts and no property tax hikes either if you have not noticed.
nfitz
Superstar
I'm sure he's shaking.
But there doesn't seem to be anything in Chong's report that requires tolls. Looking at the numbers, he could probably do the whole thing with a parking tax. Or an employment tax.
But would Ford find any of these palatable. Heck, I'd almost support this bizarre subway plan if it gives us a tool for long-term funding of transit infrastructure expansion.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Well, according to the Star, tolls and other measures will definitely be needed, contrary to the denials:
http://www.thestar.com/article/1125...d-to-pay-for-sheppard-subway-report-concludes
Stretch all the revenue tools out for 50 years? Just to pay for subway with dubious ridership figures no matter how you slice and dice it? If it is for a DRL, I'd say yes; for this? No. If Scarborough want it that badly, they should suck it up and pay for it through road tolls, gas taxes and parking hikes in their hood.
AoD
http://www.thestar.com/article/1125...d-to-pay-for-sheppard-subway-report-concludes
Stretch all the revenue tools out for 50 years? Just to pay for subway with dubious ridership figures no matter how you slice and dice it? If it is for a DRL, I'd say yes; for this? No. If Scarborough want it that badly, they should suck it up and pay for it through road tolls, gas taxes and parking hikes in their hood.
AoD
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sixrings
Senior Member
i dont mind road tolls. but the city should be asking the province or the feb for permission then to toll the 401 in toronto. the 401,dvp,427,allen, gardiner, all have to be tolled. a gas tax wont work either. what happens in a few years when people have electric cars????? it needs to be a toll by distance and if you only toll one part of the city you are really going to alienate one group of people. also if you only toll roads leading into downtown that will have a impact on businesses in the city. why wouldnt i just have my business at yonge and sheppard then or even farther north in the 905? if you toll everywhere there is no escaping the tolls and businesses wont strategically pick their locations.
EddyMCD
Active Member
Just toll the DVP and Gardiner and be done with it. It's too bad you can't toll the 400 series highways because tolling all the 905'ers commuting from suburb to suburb on Toronto roads would be the best.
The only solution for road tolls is to toll the DVP and Gardiner in both directions, but only during rush hours.
I think a gas tax would work as well. People hate the HST on gas because they don't know where the money goes. But if you had a 1 cent per litre transit gas tax that was audited yearly and you could assure the money was put into transit I think people would be ok with it.
Employment taxes may be a sore spot because most people already resent the heavy income taxes they pay. If you could somehow incorporate in transit tax into corporate taxes instead it could work.
The only solution for road tolls is to toll the DVP and Gardiner in both directions, but only during rush hours.
I think a gas tax would work as well. People hate the HST on gas because they don't know where the money goes. But if you had a 1 cent per litre transit gas tax that was audited yearly and you could assure the money was put into transit I think people would be ok with it.
Employment taxes may be a sore spot because most people already resent the heavy income taxes they pay. If you could somehow incorporate in transit tax into corporate taxes instead it could work.
nfitz
Superstar
I think the concern is, that the kickback from voters would be even worse than on the vehicle tax.
This is exactly what Vancouver is doing to fund the Skytrain extensions. Doesn't seem to be causing much uproar, even though they were so sensitive to the HST, and already have higher gas taxes than we do. Might be the asnwer.
I think the thought was they would be corporate taxes, not individual taxes. Like the existing Ontario Employer Tax, or the employer contributions to EI (which is higher than what individuals pay) and CPP.
denfromoakvillemilton
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True. But they want subways. So pay for them.
Electrify
Senior Member
The biggest problem with tolling the 401, beside the fact that it is a provincial road, is that there are people using it to bypass the city completely. For example, a family on a road trip from Buffalo to Ottawa would end up paying the toll to the city, even though they spent no money here and and used none of its services.
Tolling the express or collector lanes of the 401 (with some lane redrawing) could work though.
Tolling the express or collector lanes of the 401 (with some lane redrawing) could work though.
License plates are exempt from the toll for the first 4 trips. That way if all you're doing is passing through the odd time, you're spared the toll. Problem solved
.TOareaFan
Superstar
Gas taxes have a couple of advantages over road tolls in this application (IMO).
1. everyone who drives in and around the city contributes and not just people who use the DVP/Gardiner in their commutes (ironically, people driving on those roads are going to be amongst the least affected by the existance of rapid transit on Eglinton and Sheppard....so a select few end up contributing to a service for others that they will see little benefit themselves)
2. gas is an item that we have grown very used to frequent and wide fluctuations in price.....so you could even (and I am not advocating this) slap on a couple of cents tax and not tell anyone and they would not notice......when you tell them they will just see the price go up by 2 cents (likely more than that as I believe the HST is a tax on tax when applied to gas) and probably see little affect.
Of course it also has one obvious shortcoming when compared to road tolls......it can be avoided just by filling up outside of the gas tax area....so if it were a 416 tax...people could cross the street to 905 to fill up. If you extend the tax area to the 905 those areas are gonna want their share of the revenue so the city may not achieve what it is trying to.
1. everyone who drives in and around the city contributes and not just people who use the DVP/Gardiner in their commutes (ironically, people driving on those roads are going to be amongst the least affected by the existance of rapid transit on Eglinton and Sheppard....so a select few end up contributing to a service for others that they will see little benefit themselves)
2. gas is an item that we have grown very used to frequent and wide fluctuations in price.....so you could even (and I am not advocating this) slap on a couple of cents tax and not tell anyone and they would not notice......when you tell them they will just see the price go up by 2 cents (likely more than that as I believe the HST is a tax on tax when applied to gas) and probably see little affect.
Of course it also has one obvious shortcoming when compared to road tolls......it can be avoided just by filling up outside of the gas tax area....so if it were a 416 tax...people could cross the street to 905 to fill up. If you extend the tax area to the 905 those areas are gonna want their share of the revenue so the city may not achieve what it is trying to.
Dan416
Senior Member
This is one of those times transit should be coordinated on a regional level (knock, knock Metrolinx).