New Transit Funding Sources

[blacktrojan3921]

It's very much a bitter pill for Mr. Ford and every fiscal conservative in Toronto to swallow, but it is realistically the best way to raise revenue to pay for expanding the Sheppard subway. You can't get everything you want for your city without having to suck it up and piss off some people by raising taxes, even when it's only slightly raised.

 

[ssiguy2]

Although I have never had a problem for paying for a new piece of infrastructure with tolls, like a bridge outside of that I strongly oppose them.
They are, by their very definition, totally unfair. A guy making minimum wage driving his Ford Pinto 2 km which happens to be over a toll road gets hammered while conversely someone driving a Hummer 100km a day to and from work could pay nothing. You shouldn't be penealized because you just happen to live where they arbitrarily decided to put a toll.
Gas taxes are a far superior and less costly way to raise funds and are fairer way to boot. The more you drive the more you pay, it's as simple as that. That guy driving his Pinto would pay very little and the guy driving 100km would get nailed. It also means you don't have people trying to avoid the road tolls by going down local streets which were not intended for either that use or traffic level.
Gas taxes also encourage people to carpool and to drive more fuel efficient cars and live closer to work as the less they have to fill up the tank, the less gas tax they pay. This also has the added benefit of people buying smaller engine more fuel efficient cars which are almost uniformally less polluting.
Road tolls hit a few people in a small area very hard while gas taxes spread out the pain and are far fairer a solution.

 

[Johnny Au]

My preference for funding sources, in order:

Road tolls - targets congestion directly

Gas tax - targets the people who are responsible for congestion (drivers), but does not address congestion directly. Because you pay based on how much you drive, it is a much fairer assessment of how much your behaviour contributes to congestion and wear and tear on the roadways (see cons of VRT, below).

Tax increment financing - a novel idea, but cannot recoup the costs of rapid transit expansion on its own. Also suggests that we should build lines where we can develop the most real estate, not based on travel demand.

Vehicle registration tax - regressive; targets drivers, but targets all drivers equally regardless of how much they contribute to congestion or wear and tear on the roadways.

Dedicated Sales tax - incredibly regressive; targets all members of society equally, regardless of ability to pay or even if they contribute to traffic congestion at all. Hurts industries and businesses that might actually be trying to help the situation. If I buy a bike, I should be paying the same tax to support transit construction as some guy who buys 22" rims for his Escalade?

I was thinking of a graduated VRT, in which the amount paid is based on the weight of the vehicle.

 

[sixrings]

Although I have never had a problem for paying for a new piece of infrastructure with tolls, like a bridge outside of that I strongly oppose them.
They are, by their very definition, totally unfair. A guy making minimum wage driving his Ford Pinto 2 km which happens to be over a toll road gets hammered while conversely someone driving a Hummer 100km a day to and from work could pay nothing. You shouldn't be penealized because you just happen to live where they arbitrarily decided to put a toll.
Gas taxes are a far superior and less costly way to raise funds and are fairer way to boot. The more you drive the more you pay, it's as simple as that. That guy driving his Pinto would pay very little and the guy driving 100km would get nailed. It also means you don't have people trying to avoid the road tolls by going down local streets which were not intended for either that use or traffic level.
Gas taxes also encourage people to carpool and to drive more fuel efficient cars and live closer to work as the less they have to fill up the tank, the less gas tax they pay. This also has the added benefit of people buying smaller engine more fuel efficient cars which are almost uniformally less polluting.
Road tolls hit a few people in a small area very hard while gas taxes spread out the pain and are far fairer a solution.

what about the guy who buys the volt and drives a 100km on a single charge and doesnt buy any gas versus the guy in the hummer only driving 2km at 10km/ltr. in this case od say the hummer got screwed despite driving such a short distance.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Perhaps to get more bang for your buck and better service there should be more lines that aren't tied to specific streets like the Spadina Line and the end of the Danforth Line. It would also ensure for further apart stop spacing.

And plus tying them to specific streets also holds expanding the system back if those streets don't have enough ridership on them.

 

[BurlOak]

what about the guy who buys the volt and drives a 100km on a single charge and doesnt buy any gas versus the guy in the hummer only driving 2km at 10km/ltr. in this case od say the hummer got screwed despite driving such a short distance.

The number of electric vehicles is small enough that they do not effect the total decision at all. We already allow these vehicles on HOV lanes, and I am sure they would either be exempt from congestion tolls, or have significantly lower tolls, until their numbers on the road increased.

The hummer driver does deserve to get screwed since if he drove a normal sized vehicle he would use half the gas.

PS. I think the hummer in your example is getting great fuel economy. 10 km/lrt = 10 l/100km. I wuold say it would actually use more than twice that amount for city driving (i.e. 24 l/100 km)

 

[rfid]

Although I have never had a problem for paying for a new piece of infrastructure with tolls, like a bridge outside of that I strongly oppose them.
They are, by their very definition, totally unfair. A guy making minimum wage driving his Ford Pinto 2 km which happens to be over a toll road gets hammered while conversely someone driving a Hummer 100km a day to and from work could pay nothing. You shouldn't be penealized because you just happen to live where they arbitrarily decided to put a toll.
Gas taxes are a far superior and less costly way to raise funds and are fairer way to boot. The more you drive the more you pay, it's as simple as that. That guy driving his Pinto would pay very little and the guy driving 100km would get nailed. It also means you don't have people trying to avoid the road tolls by going down local streets which were not intended for either that use or traffic level.
Gas taxes also encourage people to carpool and to drive more fuel efficient cars and live closer to work as the less they have to fill up the tank, the less gas tax they pay. This also has the added benefit of people buying smaller engine more fuel efficient cars which are almost uniformally less polluting.
Road tolls hit a few people in a small area very hard while gas taxes spread out the pain and are far fairer a solution.

Depends how you implement the toll, if it's toll by distance and fully automated like the 407. Or if it's like some areas of US where you cross a toll booth.

 

[BurlOak]

Depends how you implement the toll, if it's toll by distance and fully automated like the 407. Or if it's like some areas of US where you cross a toll booth.

Why is it so much better to toll the vehicle coming in from QEW, 400, 404, but if the same driver comes in on Dundas, hwy 27, Keele, Markham Road then they pay nothing.There are numerous major arterial roads leading into Toronto - will these all have toll cameras, transponder readers, etc.?

 

[andrewpmk]

You would have to be a sucker for punishment and/or be rabidly against tolls to the point of shooting yourself in the foot to do that. Time is money, so the time savings you get from traveling down a tolled highway far exceed the cost of the tolls. Very few people would voluntarily drive down highway 7 from Markham to Brampton to avoid paying the tolls on the 407.

Lots of people do that. Maybe not very many go all the way from Markham to Brampton, but then why do you think that some sections of Highway 7 are congested all day 7 days a week? Too many people are too cheap to pay the toll (around $2-3 with transponder) to bypass the worst section between Bayview and Warden.

If you toll highways you will probably have to start tolling the worst congested arterial roads (e.g. Highway 7, Sheppard, Eglinton, Lake Shore, Bloor, Yonge) as well. Time to just implement GPS based tolling and charge 10 cents/km to drive anywhere in the GTA (and 20 cents/km on the 401 in rush hour

 

[sixrings]

Lots of people do that. Maybe not very many go all the way from Markham to Brampton, but then why do you think that some sections of Highway 7 are congested all day 7 days a week? Too many people are too cheap to pay the toll (around $2-3 with transponder) to bypass the worst section between Bayview and Warden.

If you toll highways you will probably have to start tolling the worst congested arterial roads (e.g. Highway 7, Sheppard, Eglinton, Lake Shore, Bloor, Yonge) as well. Time to just implement GPS based tolling and charge 10 cents/km to drive anywhere in the GTA (and 20 cents/km on the 401 in rush hour

what we really need to do is to gps every car and then toll every road. maybe toll the highways a premium rate but realistically all roads need to be tolled and the only way to do that is via gps.

 

[TOareaFan]

This isn't a problem. This is a bonus!

There's no reason from someone driving from Buffalo to Ottawa to take the 401. It's a hour faster to take the thruway and come up I-81. If it takes tolls to make people avoid the 401 then this is a good thing to reduce congestion.

Even if they were coming from say - London - why not use the 407 instead - it's invariably faster to get through Toronto ... especially when they finish it to the east. Wait - it's tolled. So at the moment we are using tolling to encourage people to use the 401?

Don't want to pay the road toll? Take the train. Problem solved.

OK....I'll bite......I want to avoid this proposed toll on the 401 as it crosses Toronto....which train should I board?

 

[sixrings]

The number of electric vehicles is small enough that they do not effect the total decision at all. We already allow these vehicles on HOV lanes, and I am sure they would either be exempt from congestion tolls, or have significantly lower tolls, until their numbers on the road increased.

The hummer driver does deserve to get screwed since if he drove a normal sized vehicle he would use half the gas.

PS. I think the hummer in your example is getting great fuel economy. 10 km/lrt = 10 l/100km. I wuold say it would actually use more than twice that amount for city driving (i.e. 24 l/100 km)

i wasnt advocating for people driving hummers. agreed we should be driving greener cars and preferably electric cars. i was just pointing out of you tax gas and eventually everyone drives an electric car, then what? eventually all roads lead to tolls by distance. how do you do that? gps.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

OK....I'll bite......I want to avoid this proposed toll on the 401 as it crosses Toronto....which train should I board?

Bramalea to Union then pick an eastern route.

 

[TOareaFan]

Bramalea to Union then pick an eastern route.

People going from Bramalea to Union are 401 users? The 401 is an alternative to a GO from Bramalea to Union? Someone from outside of the city (to the west), to avoid the 401 toll is encouraged/expected to drive to Bramalea, take a train to Union then find a, presumably, TTC route that gets them back up to the destination near the 401 that they were aiming for in the first place?

This may be true in a transit utopian world we think we are in but in the real world, the reality is there is no train that is a 401 alternative....I wish it were so...but those poor people who are stuck using that road to get to and from their daily lives (thankfully, except for a brief stretch of my commute I am not one of them) do not have a train alternative in which they can take refuge from any proposed tolling of the 401.

 

[nfitz]

The biggest problem with tolling the 401, beside the fact that it is a provincial road, is that there are people using it to bypass the city completely. For example, a family on a road trip from Buffalo to Ottawa would end up paying the toll to the city, even though they spent no money here and and used none of its services.

OK....I'll bite......I want to avoid this proposed toll on the 401 as it crosses Toronto....which train should I board?

From Buffalo? The Buffalo to Toronto train only arrives in Toronto at 7:45 pm, too late to catch the last train to Ottawa. So either you overnight in Toronto, or you drive to Niagara Falls and catch the train from there to Toronto and change to Ottawa. About 7.5 hours - which is not bad given it's 6.5 hours to drive, and on the train you have an hour in Toronto to change trains.