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GTHA Transit Fare Integration

I don't think there's any point in this. The Richmond Hill Line will never amount to much more than a miniature commuter railway. It's never going to get all-day service because its inevitably going to be duplicated by a Yonge subway extension. Who will want to take the TTC to Leslie and then the Go Train to Union, when the time saved (assuming the destination is Union Station) is about the same as the time it takes to walk between the two stations even if there is a tunnel built, and you have to wait for the train to arrive?

For both the city and the province, it's a much better use of resources to expand the parking lot at Oriole so more people will take the train during rush hour rather than driving down the DVP. While they're at it, maybe add a direct entrance from the 401 eastbound off-ramp to the parking lot.

Wrong.

The Richmond Hill Line goes to Yonge at Langstaff GO station.

Trust me, people will rather take the GO from this area to Union rather than the Yonge subway. Especially when the Richmond Hill line is switched onto the old CPR Don Branch, which will cut even more time off it.

It will be an express service while the Yonge subway will crawl along.
 
I don't think there's any point in this. The Richmond Hill Line will never amount to much more than a miniature commuter railway. It's never going to get all-day service because its inevitably going to be duplicated by a Yonge subway extension. Who will want to take the TTC to Leslie and then the Go Train to Union, when the time saved (assuming the destination is Union Station) is about the same as the time it takes to walk between the two stations even if there is a tunnel built, and you have to wait for the train to arrive?

For both the city and the province, it's a much better use of resources to expand the parking lot at Oriole so more people will take the train during rush hour rather than driving down the DVP. While they're at it, maybe add a direct entrance from the 401 eastbound off-ramp to the parking lot.
Wrong.

The Richmond Hill Line goes to Yonge at Langstaff GO station.

Trust me, people will rather take the GO from this area to Union rather than the Yonge subway. Especially when the Richmond Hill line is switched onto the old CPR Don Branch, which will cut even more time off it.

It will be an express service while the Yonge subway will crawl along.
Elsewhere, there are precedents of what amounts to "express/allstop" metro systems elsewhere in the world. Paris' RER intermingling with Paris' Metro is one classic example, and the London CrossRail will also serve a somewhat similar purpose too.

I think that in 50 years, Yonge+DRL-Long will essentially need to be re-twinned yet again -- and Richmond Hill RER around ~2050-2060+ may very well serve this role. That's why Richmond Hill RER currently is a "After 2041" plan in the Metrolinx 2041 document.

DRL will only relieve temporarily, but induced demand and continued Toronto growth will simultaneously overwhelm both Yonge line _and_ DRL. That's what's currently happening in other cities (Beijing, Shanghai, etc) -- their DRL equivalents in other cities eventually go overflowing.

The induced demand phenomenon that happens to freeways also happens to a lot of heavily-trafficked transit routes through dense regions (aka downtown routings rather than Sheppard routings). You widen freeways, more people drive, cars fill up freeway. Same for downtown high-density subways in world cities -- you build more lines, they fill up. My prediction of the DRL is that, while it provides relief, induced demand will make these routes really busy, and we will need more routings.

Downtown "Relief" Line, is an induced-demand recipe -- it's only a DTRL, not DRL -- "Downtown Temporary Relief Line". DRL and DRL-Long goes through areas that stand gradually densify quite significantly, and Yonge appears to continue to super-densify, so Yonge+DRL won't be enough in 30-50 years.

Certainly it is better city policy to build mass transit, as Yonge Subway alone, moves more people per hour than an 8-lane-wide freeway, so better induced demand happens to subways than freeways.

Historically we had only one metro loop -- Line 2 intersecting the "U". In a couple of decades, we will have gridded/intersected our subway system massively more just like New York City, London, Paris, Beijing, Shanghai, and the gridding tends to have some major induced-demand effects (well observed in all those other major cities), as people gains more options of being able to go in either direction around various loops.

Toronto's skyscraper density is expected to almost double again in roughly ~20 years -- based on just the currently proposed/approved constructions -- alone -- that are already on the table -- not including 50 years worth of plans.

If Canada+Toronto is still a gangbusters place to live (compared to many places of the world elsewhere -- Canada has the potential to suffer less comparatively speaking from geopolitics & climate change) -- Toronto will still be growing then into its continued progress into a super-megalopolis, and Richmond Hill RER needs to be protected-for (e.g. Don Valley sub).

If DRL-Long gets crowded too (just like induced demand phenomenons being observed on a Beijing/Shanghai subway), we've got a fantastic further-relief backup -- Richmond Hill RER. Brilliant protecting-for. Kudos to whomever spent taxpayer money to buy up the Don branch so incredibly cheaply -- in 50 years we may see this almost as prescient as the Prince Edward Viaduct 1918 protecting-for of the tracks under the bridge. That was originally called a white elephant but has been lauded and venerated since, having saved a huge amount of construction cost for the TTC Bloor-Danforth subway. In fact, it stands to save Toronto far more money than the famed 1918 PEV bridge decision (even inflation-adjusted!) -- being able to double as a DRL2 as Toronto's equivalent of a London-CrossRail expansion or Paris-RER expansion. Instead of spending CrossRail style costs, we have a bona-fide DRL2 corridor already, saving tens of billions.

There may be political shifts (e.g. Changing the sequence of: DRL-Long / Richmond Hill RER / Yonge Line Extension / etc) but the Richmond Hill RER needs to be kept in reserve as a useful express route later this century.

It's still cheaper than tunneling a 4-track Yonge Subway, anyway. And parallel routes are more sensible. That's the proper way to build relief routes. Other cities (including TODAY's Beijing and Shanghai -- are already building relief-line routes, in some cases a mere decade after their original parallel routes). Richmond Hill RER and Yonge Subway (extended) will interchange in Richmond Hill, so they will be connected at both ends, so that allows Richmond Hill RER to double as a 150kph super-express as part of the FRTN (Frequent Rapid Transit Network). This will likely be critically needed in 50 years. It's good to protect these corridors.
 
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For people who work downtown it's a great opportunity to have express RER style access to downtown or rapid midtown access via the subway. Even if it will be a "miniature commuter railway" having a better connection will UNDOUBTEDLY lead to more transit use a a dispersion of traffic away from Yonge Subway South, whether it's thousands or hundreds it'll still be a benefit to the network as a whole. I also imagine it's got to be a fairly easy to make this into a quick win project for the Metrolinx. It doesn't seem like there will be a need for extensive construction to make this happen?

+1. We talk about building a DRL from whole cloth, yet the powers that be won't scrape together the will to 100-percent-discount TTC-to-GO transfers, or to build the connective tissue to make these transfers work? Either they want to begin offloading traffic from the Yonge line or they don't, and if they're not willing to tackle the quick wins it makes me very pessimistic for the marquee projects.
 
As much as other posters bristle against my stating this, I have doubts the "Relief Line" will be built as proposed. It just doesn't make logistical or fiduciary sense as a TO subway, not to mention that QP is paying the full tab and now in charge of overseeing the design.

The Richmond Hill RER line needs to be the "Relief Line", complete with rail interconnections to other RER lines, and the tunnelling acting as a Union by-pass, and extending across the city to connect with the K-W branch, allowing RER run-through across the core. Further connections to the Lakeshore East, and perhaps even a spur to Lakeshore West would allow alternate Lakeshore trains to transit Toronto through the core in tunnel, serving as bothTTC and GO integrated service, relieving Union, relieving the present subway such that further massive investment into the present subway system is moot.

And the frequency that could be run? London Crossrail is planning on every 2 1/2 minutes, with ability to do just under 2 min headway built-in. And Thameslink now proposing *driverless* 2 1/2 minute headway: (these are walk-through EMU carriages, btw)

[...]The new fleet, which also includes 60 new more spacious eight-carriage trains, will run on routes to London from Sussex, Surrey, Kent, Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire and Cambridgeshire.
[...]
With the major rebuilding of London Bridge station, the new trains will run through central London under automatic control every two to three minutes by end of 2018.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...arriage-but-more-standing-space-a3255236.html

Here's the latest up at the London Times:
Self-driving trains will run every 2½ minutes on main lines
Graeme Paton, Transport Correspondent


October 7 2017, 12:01am, The Times

methode%2Ftimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2Fc6f718c8-aac2-11e7-b9a3-2cac9d6c85bd.jpg

Advance testing is under way on the Thameslink line through central London to run automated trains
Self-driving trains will operate on the mainline rail network for the first time under plans to increase the number of services at packed city centre stations massively.

Testing is under way on the Thameslink line through central London to run automated trains that can accelerate and brake more efficiently than those operated by a driver.

This will lead to trains running every two and a half minutes, similar to the frequency on the Tube, and the number of services increasing by 60 per cent. Drivers will still be needed to operate doors and carry out safety checks and will take full control of the trains outside central London on lines stretching as far as Brighton and eventually Cambridge.
[...]
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...l-run-every-2-minutes-on-main-lines-s6nhm2gsl

Needless to say, London Travelcards (Oyster Cards, etc) are good on all types of rail vehicles in London, save for premium privately run airport shuttles.

Maybe some day in Toronto? Not if Torontonians insist on building toy subway trains instead of the real thing.

Unlimited travel in central London
Get a 1, 2, 3 or 6 day London Pass + Oyster Travelcard for the cheapest way to travel around the city. The Oyster Travelcard covers journeys on London’s public transport network including underground, buses, overground trains and the DLR - any time of day, any day of the week! [...]
https://www.londonpass.com/london-transport/
 
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If Metrolinx had any desire of making the DRL RER, they needed to speak up two or three years ago; not at the latter stages of design when the EA is about to begin.

And Metrolinx has been calling the DRL the “Relief Line Subway” now
 
If Metrolinx had any desire of making the DRL RER, they needed to speak up two or three years ago; not at the latter stages of design when the EA is about to begin.

And Metrolinx has been calling the DRL the “Relief Line Subway” now
Here's from the City and TTC:
May 24, 2017 Current Work Summer 2017
In July 2016 City Council approval of a Pape/Eastern/Queen alignment for the Relief Line, with the exception of a local segment, located generally between the GO Rail corridor and Queen Street.

In May 2017, City Council approved the Carlaw alignment for the local segment. City Council authorized commencing the Transit Project Assessment Process (TPAP), and advancing planning and design. The TPAP for the Relief Line is anticipated to commence later in 2017.[...]
http://reliefline.ca/news/current-work-summer-2017-

The type of vehicle has yet to be determined. And "subway" merely means 'below ground'.

Metrolinx:
Relief Line (Toronto)
As part of Moving Ontario Forward, in June 2016 the province announced support for planning and design work as well as route and station locations for the proposed Relief Line that will improve transit and help manage congestion on the Yonge Subway line.

Metrolinx will be receiving more than $150 million to work with the City of Toronto and the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) on advancing the planning and design work that will ensure the proposed line is shovel ready, making it easier for people to travel around the Greater Toronto Area.
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/projectsandprograms/transitexpansionprojects/transit_expansion.aspx

The only thing being decided and discussed from the participating agencies at this time is the finer route and stations of the southern leg.

Here's from a much earlier Metrolinx release mentioning "subway", but even then, not the vehicle type or specs:
Relief Line Subway Plan
What We’re Doing
The Government of Ontario has announced that in coordination with Metrolinx, it is supporting planning and design work for the proposed Relief Line.

Metrolinx will work with the City of Toronto and the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) on advancing the planning and design work that will move the proposed line toward being shovel ready.

Why We’re Doing It
Employment in downtown Toronto is growing and travel demand into downtown is increasing.

The Relief Line subway will improve transit and help manage congestion on the Yonge Subway line.

It will provide an alternative route for downtown-bound commuters from the east, allowing them to bypass the crowded Bloor-Yonge Station.

It will expand rapid transit access to new neighbourhoods in Toronto’s east end, promoting economic development and city-building.


Project Status
Working with Metrolinx, the City of Toronto expects to complete its Relief Line Project Assessment Study in 2016. [...]
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/news/announcements/201608_Relief_Line.aspx

Let's flip this over for a moment. If RER in tunnel delivers everything the Pape Subway was touted to, and much more, for roughly the same price, if not cheaper, and satisfy regional demand as well as relieving Union, Yonge/Bloor stations and much more, why *wouldn't* you favour it?

Edit to Add: From the City/TTC's latest news release, which like all lately is meticulous in not mentioning "subway", watch the vid with Jennifer Keesmaat, 3 mins in, stating "integrating SmartTrack and the Relief Line" and then referring to GO RER in the next sentence:
 
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Okay, Trump.

The Richmond Hill Line goes to Yonge at Langstaff GO station. Trust me, people will rather take the GO from this area to Union rather than the Yonge subway. Especially when the Richmond Hill line is switched onto the old CPR Don Branch, which will cut even more time off it. It will be an express service while the Yonge subway will crawl along.

The RH trains also have to crawl along because they take a winding route with lots of sharp corners along the way. There used to be an alternative route that could be built in the future, but it's now a city park and thus no longer an option. The current route for RH trains takes 40 minutes to get from Langstaff to Union. There's absolutely no point in spending billions so that people can take a 40 minute train to Union rather than the 45 minute subway ride that'll eventually be available.
 
The RH trains also have to crawl along because they take a winding route with lots of sharp corners along the way. There used to be an alternative route that could be built in the future, but it's now a city park and thus no longer an option. The current route for RH trains takes 40 minutes to get from Langstaff to Union. There's absolutely no point in spending billions so that people can take a 40 minute train to Union rather than the 45 minute subway ride that'll eventually be available.

This route looks so much easier and cheaper to double track than the current route through the Don Valley. Much easier to interface with Eglinton, similar difficulty to interface with with Bloor-Danforth, and trains speeds could be a lot faster. The Leaside Spur Trail could be easily replaced with a bicycle track on Leslie Street. Sound barriers and better track can be added to mitigated the sound from the residents of Don Mills. I really think the Province made a poor decision to buy the ROW but not divert Richmond Hill Line trains to it, even with the costs for track grade separation. RER on the RH Line is much needed even with a Yonge Line extension to Richmond Hill Centre.
 
There's absolutely no point in spending billions so that people can take a 40 minute train to Union rather than the 45 minute subway ride that'll eventually be available.

This route looks so much easier and cheaper to double track than the current route through the Don Valley.

*Even if* the claims for time were the same as Amnesia states, there's no choice according to planners and Byford. Line 1, even with tweaks, will be at over-saturation by 2031. (2:40 at vid linked above, and many reports).
upload_2017-10-8_8-51-57.png



An express by-pass is necessary, and that's RER in some form, and the most obvious is to take parts of the present ex CP and CN lines down the Don Valley, and combine them with the 'Relief Line' (in whole or in part) to satisfy that need and more. It would allow the Lakeshore Line from the east to have an alternative route into the mid-downtown core to take passengers from the burbs and beyond directly there without using the TTC subway, and if/when extended to the western side of the core, connect to the Weston sub to allow full 'run-through' of trains to the west.

In the event, with much faster RER trains with far fewer stations north of Don Mills, and some continuing to run express down the valley to Union (the others in tunnel to be the Relief Line to University and Queen initially, through-running to the west eventually), timings will be far shorter than today.

Almost every major world city does this, NYC, London, Paris, Sydney, etc, etc.
 

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Wrong.

The Richmond Hill Line goes to Yonge at Langstaff GO station.

Trust me, people will rather take the GO from this area to Union rather than the Yonge subway. Especially when the Richmond Hill line is switched onto the old CPR Don Branch, which will cut even more time off it.

It will be an express service while the Yonge subway will crawl along.

Okay, Trump.



The RH trains also have to crawl along because they take a winding route with lots of sharp corners along the way. There used to be an alternative route that could be built in the future, but it's now a city park and thus no longer an option. The current route for RH trains takes 40 minutes to get from Langstaff to Union. There's absolutely no point in spending billions so that people can take a 40 minute train to Union rather than the 45 minute subway ride that'll eventually be available.

Two isues with the Richmond Hill Line:

First, fares. It costs $3,177 per person per year to make 40 trips a month from Richmond Hill GO to Union Station. It cost $1,560 to make those same tips by TTC. How many commuters are willing to spend the extra $1,600 per year to shave 5 minutes off their commute?

Also, not everybody is going to destination in the vicinity of Union Station. If you’re going to destinations of Queen or King, TTC Line 1 will likely be the faster option.
 
Two isues with the Richmond Hill Line:

First, fares. It costs $3,177 per person per year to make 40 trips a month from Richmond Hill GO to Union Station. It cost $1,560 to make those same tips by TTC. How many commuters are willing to spend the extra $1,600 per year to shave 5 minutes off their commute?
Care to detail how that TTC fare breaks down to Richmond Hill? Aren't you missing something?

Also, not everybody is going to destination in the vicinity of Union Station. If you’re going to destinations of Queen or King, TTC Line 1 will likely be the faster option.
We've yet to hear the latest plans for the Relief Line, let alone far integration.

*Many* people are more than willing to pay a premium to ride GO v. local transit across the regions as it is. Once fare integration happens (and it must) that becomes a virtually moot point.
 
The Leaside Spur Trail could be easily replaced with a bicycle track on Leslie Street

The Trail isn't a bicycle path though. It's a full-feature park, and the odds of removing it are near-zero. It's just politically impossible!

Care to detail how that TTC fare breaks down to Richmond Hill? Aren't you missing something?

I'm not sure why you bother to ask for details about transit fares 15 years from now. You know the answer to this question already.
 
I'm not sure why you bother to ask for details about transit fares 15 years from now. You know the answer to this question already.
The question and answer were in the present, not fifteen years. I answered separately regarding impending plans for fare integration.

Please read again, and carefully:
TheTigerMaster said:
Two isues with the Richmond Hill Line:

First, fares. It costs $3,177 per person per year to make 40 trips a month from Richmond Hill GO to Union Station. It cost $1,560 to make those same tips by TTC. How many commuters are willing to spend the extra $1,600 per year to shave 5 minutes off their commute?
Perhaps I should point out the bog obvious since some miss it, then blame my question for doing so?

There's also a fare to pay on the transit provider to get to the TTC from Richmond Hill at present.
 
Perhaps I should point out the bog obvious since some miss it, then blame my question for doing so? There's also a fare to pay on the transit provider to get to the TTC from Richmond Hill at present.

He's talking about the future, when the subway extension is inevitably built, not today. Right now the fares are roughly the same and the time difference from RHC to Union is around 15 minutes. Essentially, the RH Line only makes sense to take if your destination is somewhere within walking distance of Union Station, and a subway extension will mean that even those trips don't make sense - the benefits of the commuter train will essentially just be a bit more comfort and cell reception (although the TTC is probably going to have wireless internet in trains soon).
 
I find this hard to believe. My friend comes from Oshawa/Pickering using GO every day and does not spend over $3000 on GO fares for the month. Now I guess you mean they need to pay a 2nf fare for TTC. I just finished reading the post more careful. WEll housing more ex0pensive in Toronto. Are we suppose to subsidize peoples' living expenses/costs? You take a taxi from Richmond Hill into toronto more expensive than taxi from finch/Yonge to union station
 

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