Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Tuck]

Sigh. It's bait but I can't resist.

Actually I was talking about Malvern the place, not Malvern the line. You know, the place that has been consistently screwed over by RT plans in this city.

Second, I don't see how the Malvern LRT is cheaping out on transit. Or I guess you're just brining us back round to that nonsense "LT isn't good enough even though tons of cities besides Toronto use it effectively" argument which has no merit whatsoever, while also ignoring the fact that is gives more people in Scarborough access to the RT system than the SSE, and also reaches UofT Scarborough.

But yeah ok, Subways Subways Subways. Somehow I think you'd be singing a different tune if Malvern was a subway.

 

[pstogios]

Meanwhile, in Paris (the little city in France, not the community in Ontario), from this link:

P.S. As we saw with St. Clair and Spadina, having grass on a right-of-way seems to be forbidden in Toronto.

This is totally irrelevant to the subject of this thread which is the Scarborough RT.

 

[Tuck]

I think the point was "While Toronto is still debating about the merits of LRT, Paris has had a functional one for a decade."

Considering the focus of the discussion for many pages of this thread, its relevant.

The grass, less so. But people go off topic all the time, and it was just a side note.

 

[OneCity]

Poor Malvern.

Why? The Eglinton Crosstown LRT will end up being extended to Malvern. I use to live in Malvern and as much as I wanted transit to revitalize the area I wanted better and faster access to the subway first. My commute downtown was 1-2 buses, an ear piercing RT ride, a subway to another subway. Two hours of transfer hell each way.

As for the larger plan as a whole we needed to address the integration of Scarborough City Centre which has been ignored and fought against for decades. Subway, LRT and BRT will all be built.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

“I’m a convert. I believe the Sheppard Subway should be extended to the Scarborough Civic Centre.”
- Glen De Baeremaeker

http://www.insidetoronto.com/news-s...won-t-use-big-bend-alignment-councillor-says/

The story also confirms that the Big Bend alignment is unworkable.

Well at least this time he is admitting that he changed his mind.

But he hasn't admitted he lost it.

AoD

I for one am shocked. Shocked!

Well not that shocked.

The Sheppard LRT is about as smart as the current SRT is. If they do end up building it, 20-40 years from now, the city will end up regretting not spending the money for a full subway. I still think the 2 lines could be connected and form a big U.

Poor Malvern.

Why? Malvern isn't as needed as many other rapid transit lines. Malvern makes little sense, unless you want to cheap out on transit in that area and have a break in gauge for everyone riding through to a subway.

Give me a good reason it should be kept?

Sigh. It's bait but I can't resist.

Actually I was talking about Malvern the place, not Malvern the line. You know, the place that has been consistently screwed over by RT plans in this city.

Second, I don't see how the Malvern LRT is cheaping out on transit. Or I guess you're just brining us back round to that nonsense "LT isn't good enough even though tons of cities besides Toronto use it effectively" argument which has no merit whatsoever, while also ignoring the fact that is gives more people in Scarborough access to the RT system than the SSE, and also reaches UofT Scarborough.

But yeah ok, Subways Subways Subways. Somehow I think you'd be singing a different tune if Malvern was a subway.

I think the point was "While Toronto is still debating about the merits of LRT, Paris has had a functional one for a decade."

Considering the focus of the discussion for many pages of this thread, its relevant.

The grass, less so. But people go off topic all the time, and it was just a side note.

Why? The Eglinton Crosstown LRT will end up being extended to Malvern. I use to live in Malvern and as much as I wanted transit to revitalize the area I wanted better and faster access to the subway first.

As for the plan as a whole we needed to address Scarborough City Center integration which was ignored and fought against for decades.. Subway, LRT and BRT will all be built.

Welp... here is step 2. First the big bend, then the admittance that he wants Sheppard. the Entire big bend plan was created to intentionally cause overflow . They would have had to build the Progres station within a year. Then extend to Agincourt GO "because of flexibility and connectivity." Sheppard doesn't make sense, but the city will have to cave on some point, sad as it is. Probably soon too. One City, welcome to board but I disagree. The subway is not going to do anything for Malvern, especially if you have to sit on the Neilsen or Kennedy bus for 20 minutes anyway. This was the logical progession of events, and why some people were against the bloor extension from day one. You give a little, they'll want it all. At least the Crosstown East is being built, and De Baeremaker supports that. That means at least East Scarborough is getting some transit.


This is what happens when you cave. Let this be a lesson. The push to build Sheppard and "close the gap" starts now.

 

[OneCity]

Welp... here is step 2. First the big bend, then the admittance that he wants Sheppard. the Entire big bend plan was created to intentionally cause overflow . They would have had to build the Progres station within a year. Then extend to Agincourt GO "because of flexibility and connectivity." Sheppard doesn't make sense, but the city will have to cave on some point, sad as it is. Probably soon too. One City, welcome to board but I disagree. The subway is not going to do anything for Malvern, especially if you have to sit on the Neilsen or Kennedy bus for 20 minutes anyway. This was the logical progession of events, and why some people were against the bloor extension from day one. You give a little, they'll want it all. At least the Crosstown East is being built, and De Baeremaker supports that. That means at least East Scarborough is getting some transit.


This is what happens when you cave. Let this be a lesson. The push to build Sheppard and "close the gap" starts now.

My wife an I rode the subway to the hospital downtown almost everyday for two years from Malvern when my father in law was sick. There is a reason there is such large support to remove transfers and extend the subway.

At some point Malvern will still get its LRT stop(s) but its about laying a solid foundation from the start if the City cannot build multiple priorities together. Using Malvern as a pawn to cheap out on Scarborough Centre isn't the right thing to do. We are well overdue everywhere in the City but that doesn't mean we need to be short sighted again

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

My wife an I rode the subway to the hospital downtown almost everyday for two years from Malvern when my father in law was sick. There is a reason there is such large support to remove transfers and extend the subway.

At some point Malvern will still get its LRT stop(s) but its about laying a solid foundation from the start if the City cannot build multiple priorities together. Using Malvern as a pawn to cheap out on Scarborough Centre isn't the right thing to do. We are well overdue everywhere in the City but that doesn't mean we need to be short sighted again

But what does have to do with Sheppard? If that subway is built, you have to transfer at Don Mills/Fairview Mall or Sheppard - Yonge. to go downtown. And the ridership will be poor on Sheppard as well. I was talking about Sheppard East and not the Bloor extension.

 

[OneCity]

But what does have to do with Sheppard? If that subway is built, you have to transfer at Don Mills/Fairview Mall or Sheppard - Yonge. to go downtown. And the ridership will be poor on Sheppard as well. I was talking about Sheppard East and not the Bloor extension.

For all Sheppard commuters they will go bus to subway in one shot. For Malvern residents it would be Bus-Subway-Subway and that's better than Bus-LRT-Subway-Subway. As for those residents to the West its even more ideal as the first short subway stretch adds an extra layer of inconvenience.

This subway loop, Crosstown LRT extension & Ellesmere BRT is an optimal solution and it wont take much to add Malvern to the LRT line once we have more clarity that this is the direction . In the end Malvern residents will be very well served and more importantly Scarborough as a whole will be far better served.

 

[micheal_can]

But what does have to do with Sheppard? If that subway is built, you have to transfer at Don Mills/Fairview Mall or Sheppard - Yonge. to go downtown. And the ridership will be poor on Sheppard as well. I was talking about Sheppard East and not the Bloor extension.

As I see it, this has to do with all the complaining about the one stop subway extension.

Do we want to replace LRT in 20-40 years, or bite the bullet and build what is needed now and for the future?

Bloor and Yonge used to also be streetcar lines. Now, those lines are underground and are a subway. Surface LRT/Streetcar is not a bad idea, but in a city like Toronto, they are too short of a solution.

 

[Leo_Chan]

As I see it, this has to do with all the complaining about the one stop subway extension.

Do we want to replace LRT in 20-40 years, or bite the bullet and build what is needed now and for the future?

Bloor and Yonge used to also be streetcar lines. Now, those lines are underground and are a subway. Surface LRT/Streetcar is not a bad idea, but in a city like Toronto, they are too short of a solution.

This is like saying we should future proof transit as much as possible. I feel like transit expansion should be a balance between future proofing and cost optimizing(saving). What that balance is, is up for debate.

 

[Tuck]

"Future proof" is a lousy excuse to overbuild on transit. You end up paying huge subsidies to run the system for decades, for ridership that may not even come.

It is very possible that the LRT IS the future proofed solution, for the time frame we are talking.

As for Malvern, they've been promised RT for years. The RT was originally supposed to be extended up there. Then the three Scarborough LRTs were supposed to run all the way there. And now? Nothing.

Yeah, keep waiting Malvern.

 

[micheal_can]

This is like saying we should future proof transit as much as possible. I feel like transit expansion should be a balance between future proofing and cost optimizing(saving). What that balance is, is up for debate.

The goal should be that it should not be a lrt, a subway, and a subway to get downtown. (SRT)
You should not have to take a different vehicle to continue down that road, unless it is a bus. (Sheppard LRT)

I am not saying everywhere should have a subway. I think the Spadina, St Clair and Crosstown are good. They are not stuck in traffic like Queen or King.

There is so much that could be done to move this city effectively. Sadly, all mayors need their stamp on it.

 

[Leo_Chan]

The goal should be that it should not be a lrt, a subway, and a subway to get downtown.

Why not? Most major cities around the world that has Buses, LRT, and Subways use this kind of model. So if you're in the suburbs, you take a bus to a LRT, which leads to a East-West Subway, which leads to a North-South Subway heading downtown. Multiple transfers is normal unless you have diagonal "express" routes.

 

[micheal_can]

Why not? Most major cities around the world that has Buses, LRT, and Subways use this kind of model. So if you're in the suburbs, you take a bus to a LRT, which leads to a East-West Subway, which leads to a North-South Subway heading downtown. Multiple transfers is normal unless you have diagonal "express" routes.

The SRT is a natural extension of the Bloor line. Show me a city that has a natural extension of a line that uses a different mode, other than buses.

 

[44 North]

As I see it, this has to do with all the complaining about the one stop subway extension.

Do we want to replace LRT in 20-40 years, or bite the bullet and build what is needed now and for the future?

Bloor and Yonge used to also be streetcar lines. Now, those lines are underground and are a subway. Surface LRT/Streetcar is not a bad idea, but in a city like Toronto, they are too short of a solution.

I dunno dude, getting two heavy subway extensions to SC is a tall order. This would be more than what was aimed for in Network 2011. The current going rate for all-underground infrastructure for 150m trains is probably 10x the per km costs of early Yonge or Bloor. Wasn't the last quote for Sheppard extension in the $4bn range? That's not to say it doesn't have merit, but even with significant political/private push it's hard to imagine such a thing happening for decades.

Also, over the years we've seen development creep outside the SC planning district. Would a Sheppard extension terminating only at SC be seen as enough by the development industry? Interestingly previous modeling put an upgraded Line 3 extension to Sheppard/Markham as having roughly the same ridership as a subway extension to SC. Which goes to show that expansion can trump a transfer. This was using ancient data. Using more recent data, and considering that Line 3 was shown to have much better development potential, it's logical that Line 3's ridership projection would come out on top.

Line 3 is DOA now, but its E-W alignment through SC does show the potential of some kind of rapid transit bisecting Scarb Centre. I'd say email your local pols and let them know that if you want a Sheppard expansion soonish, the City/TTC should try and cut the costs significantly. I'm sure it can be done, and 4-car/100m max length for stations would provide more than enough capacity for this millennium. If this can cut the cost by a good margin, and perhaps allow for easterly expansion than previously proposed, I think it could gain traction.