Your thoughts on French Immersion?

[James]

It is neat to see how much French my kids have picked up since starting Extended French in Sept. Little sponges. I definitely think I made the right decision for my kids, as their proficiency in English is very good due to their exclusively English-based schooling from JK to Grade 3, and now their French is taking off due to their 50/50 French/English schooling in Grade 4.
...

My apologies if you've already mentioned it but have your kids had any prior exposure to French before beginning Extended French last September? Or was this their first foray into a French environment? Also, are you able to speak it to them at home?

 

[UserNameToronto]

Thanks AB. I was under the impression that Sprucecourt was dodgy (mostly Regent Park kids) and Winchester was the Cabbagetowner school of choice.

I'm mostly interested in the "filtering" effect of FI/EF, as a route to a better school and/or a better cohort of kids. We're Anglo only.

How is it even possible to send kids to send kids to Rosedale Jr PS - is it a lottery? And is a bus provided, given the c.2.5km distance?

 

[Admiral Beez]

Thanks AB. I was under the impression that Sprucecourt was dodgy (mostly Regent Park kids) and Winchester was the Cabbagetowner school of choice.

You've got it correct. Winchester is the school of choice for CTers. It's just that the last principal messed it up plenty. The new principal may improve things. You'd need to ask a current Winchester parent for details.

I'm mostly interested in the "filtering" effect of FI/EF, as a route to a better school and/or a better cohort of kids. We're Anglo only.

That's exactly why we chose Extended French, in addition to wanting the benefits of stronger second language education over core French.

How is it even possible to send kids to send kids to Rosedale Jr PS - is it a lottery? And is a bus provided, given the c.2.5km distance?

There is only one way to get into Rosedale PS from CT area. Enroll your pre-JK kid in their daycare - the TDSB rules say that kids out of the catchment area that attend daycare at that school are given preference under Optional Attendance rules. No bus.

 

[UserNameToronto]

That's exactly why we chose Extended French, in addition to wanting the benefits of stronger second language education over core French.

There is only one way to get into Rosedale PS from CT area. Enroll your pre-JK kid in their daycare - the TDSB rules say that kids out of the catchment area that attend daycare at that school are given preference under Optional Attendance rules. No bus.

Critical updates all - thank you!

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Sounds like y'all should be sending the lad to French only school.

Reviving this thread as I will soon have to decide which school to send my son to.
I was wondering if you or anyone you know of has been to a French elementary school followed by French immersion while at an English high School, how bilingual are you? Did you find it difficult to adjust?

My wife is French and I am from Calgary -- I took only 'normal' French as a second language in Calgary public, grades 5-11, then a bit at university having met Mrs. RRR. Our daughters both did JK-6 at Sacre Coeur on Linden (Bloor/Sherbourne), which was a wonderful school for most of the time. The last year for the young'un was a little rough as they changed principals, and the new woman was light years behind the principal before her.

The girls then switched to English to go to Quest Alternative for middle school, and our eldest did grade 9 at Monarch Park IB, also in English. However, they have remained fully bilingual. We have taken a sabbatical year in France this year, and they have integrated nicely into the French school system.

If French is truly your language at home, a full French elementary school will be not be an issue for your son. He will get more support from you than most of his class -- many students have essentially no French experience at home, in our experience.

As for high school... early days, my friend. I think planning elementary school based on HS is a bit backwards. Do the best at the elementary level for your son (good school with good teachers and a good principal, fingers crossed!) and high school will work itself out.

 

[Cari]

Admiral Beez,

Thanks for starting this discussion. I was looking for some first hand info from parents about early F.I. (SK start, 100%) vs. extended french (gr. 4 start, 50/50%). I am in the process of deciding which program to put my child into and have to make a decision soon.

The one thing that steers me towards early immersion (SK) is the info I've read that state young brains (e.g. kindergarten kids) benefit from a second language because it exercises their brain in a way that makes them more creative problem solvers, etc.

The one thing that steers me towards extended french is the fact that my child will have a strong foundation in English (before learning French) and will continue to take math and science in English.

I know it's been a few years now since your kids started Extended French. I was wondering how their command of the French language is now (what grade are they in)? Do they have authentic French accents? Are they fluent in French? Do they still have strong English language skills? What language do they speak at home - do they sometimes break out in French song/speech?

Any insight you could give would help me with my decision.

Thanks,
Cari

 

[prosperegal]

It's funny. My parents never considered French immersion with the public/separate school system at all - they said something about it being difficult to learn two languages at the same time (I only spoke Cantonese until I started JK). YET, they wanted me at the Toronto FRENCH School (among other private schools) as early as JK! I ended up going to regular public and separate schools for a while and finished at BSS before heading to Queen's for university. As for my hypothetical kids? French immersion is definitely on the list. Our local regular public school is mediocre at best (the separate school is a bit better, but I'm not sure my (Jewish) MIL would like that. She has no say if we have a daughter and I decide to send her to BSS, despite its Anglican affiliation, however. Not when I'm an Old Girl, making this (hypothetical) child a "legacy"). I guess that's what happens when you live downtown.

 

[James]

Just to clarify, my kids will be taking the Extended French program, which is 50/50 French/English from grade 4 to grade 8. This is different I believe from mid-immersion at grade 4, which is iirc nearly 100% French.

Here's the link for the Extended French program. http://www.tdsb.on.ca/programs/french/default.asp?cat=2

Admiral Beez, would you happen to know if TDSB has an updated list like the one you linked to a few years back (reference post above)? I remember it being quite helpful but just visiting the TDSB site now, I can't seem to locate this.

There appears to be a search page where you enter the current English public school in your catchment and it generates the applicable French Immersion school on a case by case basis.

http://www.tdsb.on.ca/elementaryschool/schoolchoices/frenchprograms.aspx

 

[James]

Also, does anyone know if TDSB has recently updated catchment areas for the French Immersion locations? I didn't think the school board would regularly revise the boundaries but someone mentioned to me recently that they did.

 

[narduch]

You should probably put your kid in ASAP if you are interested in French Immersion.

The Star had an article a couple of months ago about how French Immersion is in a bit of a crisis. Too many parents see it as a quasi-private school and they are struggling to find teachers to fill the positions. A lot of boards are considering quotas in the future.

Edit: found the article, its from November:

http://www.thestar.com/yourtoronto/...n-growth-causing-pain-for-ontario-boards.html

 

[James]

^ Thanks for that article link. I now remember reading it when it was first published but have since forgotten about it.

I think what the article is describing explains what I was questioning. I suspect it's not so much that boundaries for the Early FI program are changing but rather because of the reduced number of available FI programs, kids are routinely getting bussed out of their regular catchment area. Given that TDSB guarantees admission to FI/Early French but not at any specific school, this is likely happening more often than in the past.

 

[Admiral Beez]

My kids are in Extended French, which I prefer over immersion due to the later entry, and first five years focus on reading and writing in English. Just my preference. It is neat to see my kids, almost high school aged, functioning in French.

BTW, what the TDSB calls Extended French is called Immersion in Peel and other Boards. That's why Immersion kids from those boards can't readily transfer into the TDSB Immersion program.

 

[Bernoulli]

Admiral Beez, would you happen to know if TDSB has an updated list like the one you linked to a few years back (reference post above)? I remember it being quite helpful but just visiting the TDSB site now, I can't seem to locate this.

There appears to be a search page where you enter the current English public school in your catchment and it generates the applicable French Immersion school on a case by case basis.

http://www.tdsb.on.ca/elementaryschool/schoolchoices/frenchprograms.aspx

You used to be able to back into the schools feeding into each of the FI schools by clicking on the resulting FI school but they seem to have removed that function. It seems as if you can only enter home schools and see which FI school they feed into.

Also, does anyone know if TDSB has recently updated catchment areas for the French Immersion locations? I didn't think the school board would regularly revise the boundaries but someone mentioned to me recently that they did.

There have a been a number of schools added over the past couple of years (e.g., Blake in Riverdale, Earl Haig in East York) and every time one is added, the boundaries probably change.

There are currently 62 FI early immersion schools in the TDSB (and probably around 450 elementary schools) so obviously most kids are attending outside their home school catchment area and if you live more than a mile (officially 1.6 km) from the FI school you are being sent to, the child does receiving bussing. I think the majority of FI kids that are eligible for bussing, don't use it as the parents drive them or they attend a daycare at the school or will walk the kids to the school.

The TDSB guarantees that all SK kids that apply on time get into FI however, they do not guarantee which school you get to go to. So even if you are assigned to a particular school, they will redirect once the enrollment quota is reached (based on the number of classes/teachers for SK at the school). So there are certain home schools which are constantly redirected to whatever school has capacity. For example, Thorncliffe Park (Fraser Mustard kindergarten) is assigned to the Davisville FI school however, in the past few years, the kids have been redirected due to capped enrollment - in 2013/14 to Winchester (Cabbagetown), in 2014/15 to John Fisher (Yonge and Eglinton) and in 2015/16 to Blake (Riverdale).

Here's an interesting document for 2015/16: http://www.tdsb.on.ca/Portals/0/Community/Enrolment in French Immersion Extended French Programs 2015-2016.pdf
Out of 3702 FI SK applications, 3169 accepted placements of which 275 were redirected to a different school than they were originally assigned. Some of the redirections seem to be to a closer school (Leslieville to Blake instead of Morse) but usually they are to more distant schools.

Also, you can see from the document that only 4 schools out of 62 had internal lotteries (Allenby, RH McGregor, Regal Road and Runnymede) and for all other schools, kids from the home school were accepted into FI at their school. Especially amusing is that of the 11 RH McGregor kids redirected to Blake, 0 accepted the redirection and all 11 went back into English stream. Yes, those parents only wanted an FI education if it could happen at McGregor. Although, if you get redirected, you do stay on the waiting list for your original school until December; if you don't accept the redirection, you get dumped from the waiting list.

 

[James]

Thank you, Bernoulli, for your helpful and thorough response! The link you provided was exceptionally informative as well. How would one actually find this link from TDSB's main website? I'm embarrassed to admit that I can't seem to track it down myself.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The TDSB guarantees that all SK kids that apply on time get into FI however, they do not guarantee which school you get to go to. So even if you are assigned to a particular school, they will redirect once the enrollment quota is reached (based on the number of classes/teachers for SK at the school). So there are certain home schools which are constantly redirected to whatever school has capacity. For example, Thorncliffe Park (Fraser Mustard kindergarten) is assigned to the Davisville FI school however, in the past few years, the kids have been redirected due to capped enrollment - in 2013/14 to Winchester (Cabbagetown),

This process indirectly rips local school options from neighbourhoods. My kids used to go to Winchester in the English stream, as did many of my neighbours, where the school was over 95% full, but were essentially pushed out when the school advised they must switch entirely to FI in order to take kids from across the city.

It didn't help that the Principal of the time was an incompetent yet scheming bureaucrat who only had eyes for a future superintendent role, who inferred that Winchester, even at full enrollment was at risk of closing unless FI was accepted, because other schools had low enrollment and needed WPS' kids. In unwitting partnership with the Principal was the parent council of the time that was clueless to the facts that their campaign to make Winchester a FI school would results in: first, the school shutting down its English-stream; and second, the school becoming a regional FI hub, meaning that even if you wanted FI and lived next to the school, you weren't guaranteed a spot.

I remember my last meeting at the school when the FI-campaigners stood up to protest the above, and I asked the group what did they expect, and asked that surely they realized they were replacing the neighbourhood's school with a city wide project school? Several came up to me afterward and said that was an unintended result that they regretted.

Not that I am embittered in any way, as my kids are in a fantastic Extended French school with programs that far outdo what I saw as Winchester. In fact I have to thank the above Principal and parent council for pushing me to act in my kids' interest. Meanwhile many of my neighbours have had excellent experience with their kids now moved to Lady Lourdes on Sherbourne or elsewhere. A very few transferred to Spruce PS, but that wasn't on my short list at all.

If there's one downside to all this is that when before the kids on my street would all walk to Winchester together, they're now seen every morning getting into their parents' cars to be transported across the city, thus making childhood friendships in the neighbourhood a little bit harder to maintain. But that's life.