Your thoughts on French Immersion?

[afransen]

I guarantee that people substituting "good" for "well" doesn't come because of French Immersion. Your kids will easily pick up English from you, their friends, their hours of English classes, television, etc. The only disadvantage I've ever heard is unfamiliarity with certain terms in math, but I think that's a bit weak since a grasp of mathematics transcends any language.

One of the other tremendous benefits of a good French Immersion program is that they do things like sentence analysis which can be tremendously beneficial to understanding both English and French. They never cover things like syntax and sentence analysis in English classes.

I have to agree with that about math. I've known quite a few exchange students in my math classes, esp. from France, Germany, Switzerland, etc. who did just fine in fairly advanced mathematics courses. I think most of their difficulty came in keeping up in informal discussions of ideas among peers. I think reading academic papers in a second language might be tough, but that's probably because they're sometimes too dense even for someone who is fluent. You often figure out what the author is saying by looking at the math.

I mainly learned the names for verb tenses and parts of speech (etc.) in french (core) class. I refer to them by the french words, which sometimes makes me laugh. The students from FI elementary in my HS french classes had apparently never had any formal grammar lessons in french or english, which shocked me. Most of my exposure to grammar was in french, but we spent at least some time on it in english. Too much time was wasted learning words like hoary, which can't really be used anymore.

 

[nfitz]

However, I don't think (or hope) that's the case in Toronto, since in the English programs we separate the lesser qualified kids early on into Basic and General streams, while move the smartest kids above the Advanced stream, up to Enriched streams. At least that's how it was when I left high school back in the 1990s.

Well my observations were from Kitchener in Elementary level the 2000's - I'd assume that Toronto is similiar.

And when you think about it - if you've got an ADD kid, who spends his day disrupting the class, and seeking attention, where do you stick him. Regular or French Immersion. Right, regular - so the regular class has double the trouble - I know where I'd want my kid (if I actually would ever let my kid got to a public school in the first place).

 

[Admiral Beez]

(if I actually would ever let my kid got to a public school in the first place).

That's another issue, definitely. Interestingly, Toronto's top private schools, such as UCC, St. Mike's, etc. seem to have no problem building top performing students through a non-FI environment.

If I had the coin, I'd definitely send them to private school, but when you have twins, everything is expensive.

 

[Filip]

That's another issue, definitely. Interestingly, Toronto's top private schools, such as UCC, St. Mike's, etc. seem to have no problem building top performing students through a non-FI environment.

If I had the coin, I'd definitely send them to private school, but when you have twins, everything is expensive.

I was accepted to UCC; however, my paranoid parents thought the giant drug scene there might be bad for me.. Yea, right.

There is a drug scene, but wherever there are boatloads of rich kids, there are drugs. Same with my highschool, in the middle of wealthy central Etobicoke; drugs were everywhere.

 

[unimaginative2]

That's another issue, definitely. Interestingly, Toronto's top private schools, such as UCC, St. Mike's, etc. seem to have no problem building top performing students through a non-FI environment.

If I had the coin, I'd definitely send them to private school, but when you have twins, everything is expensive.

I know all kinds of kids from the most prestigious private schools, including some close friends, and I certainly wouldn't say that any of them are more impressive academically than kids I knew from public schools. A lot of private schools, including the best, are often dumping grounds for problem kids of the elite. A fellow I know came frome a very well-to-do family, but wasn't much of a student. He went to four of the province's most prestigious private schools (UCC, Lakefield, etc). One of them let him in because his parents donated a soccer field. As for their work and teachers, the student-teacher ratio is certainly lower, but the work they do is pretty much idential to the work in the public schools. I used to debate, and the big private schools would pour resources into their debating teams. We'd still beat them most of the time. That's just academics, though. There are certainly social reasons to send your kids to private school, especially at the elementary level. If you pick the right one, they can provide a much gentler and more caring environment.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Another challenge on FI, is that while the FI program at our school is designed for children whose parents do not speak french in the home, the vast majority of the children have at least one french speaking parent. This would put my kids at a disadvantage, as neither my wife or myself speak any French at all, and thus we can't help with homework, etc.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

But you have two kids...they can help and speak to each other, which is an advantage provided they actually speak French outside of class.

 

[Roy G Biv]

One of the other tremendous benefits of a good French Immersion program is that they do things like sentence analysis which can be tremendously beneficial to understanding both English and French. They never cover things like syntax and sentence analysis in English classes.

And grade 7 is a great time to start analyzing language.

The only problem I had with French was Math. It's ridiculous to teach Math in French, when English is the language of Math and Science. I had to adjust in 1st year university. It's hard when inverse = reciproque, and reciprocal = inverse.

I had some great teachers who made sure to sprinkle timely English onto their lessons (ie. historical events etc).

Another challenge on FI, is that while the FI program at our school is designed for children whose parents do not speak french in the home, the vast majority of the children have at least one french speaking parent. This would put my kids at a disadvantage, as neither my wife or myself speak any French at all, and thus we can't help with homework, etc.

I'd say about 90% of my friends in early French had no French-speaking parent. It's really not a big deal.

 

[unimaginative2]

Did you take math in French in high school? I went to a public French immersion school, but they never taught math or science in French beyond the grade school level.

 

[Fad225]

You would not have to worry about their English as it is the dominant culture, and they will learn it like catching a cold.

so true... I deep down really wish french was more dominant in the rest of Canada

 

[afransen]

I think if people could ever theoretically use french, it would certainly help people want to learn it. It's only becoming important now for my career options, but I've almost never used french in conversation despite taking it through grade 12.

 

[jn_12]

Did you take math in French in high school? I went to a public French immersion school, but they never taught math or science in French beyond the grade school level.

Both math and science were taught until grade 10 in French. Under the old OAC curriculum I believe they were stretched to grade 11, but I was part of the double cohort and things changed. Instead we had a sociology/psych/anthropology course that was in french in grade 11.

I think if people could ever theoretically use french, it would certainly help people want to learn it. It's only becoming important now for my career options, but I've almost never used french in conversation despite taking it through grade 12.

I've used my french quite a bit since high school. It put me over the top in getting two summer jobs in university and helped me get my current job. I worked at a campground in Niagara Falls that was popular with Quebecois and then two summers ago I worked with the City of Toronto's InfoTogo program and used it at least once a day and sometimes more depending on our location. And now with my current job I use it because I do customer service and half our customers are Quebecois. It also helped when I did a bit of travelling a few summers ago (funny enough, some people in Paris asked if I was Quebecois).

The fact is you might never use it after you're done high school, but you never know when it will come in handy. Also, does it matter if you'll use it? You'll rarely come across most of the topics you're taught in high school and university once you've graduated, but you never know when it might come up, so it's good to have it in your back pocket.

 

[afransen]

Well, I took 'core' french. I've basically resigned myself to the fact that I could only barely function in a french society (although I'd sound like an idiot). On the upside, I figure that once immersed, I could pick up the language fairly quickly.

 

[Admiral Beez]

so true... I deep down really wish french was more dominant in the rest of Canada

For that to be a reality there would need to be some serious adjustments to Canadian history, especially that of the Seven Years War between Britain et al and France. First of all, you'd need a major defeat of Britain's amphibious assault on the The French fortress at Louisbourg in Cape Breton/New France in 1758, followed by a crushing French victory at the Battle of the Plains of Abraham in 1759, and French victory at Fort Rouillé (located at Toronto's CNE grounds) in 1759, and lastly a major French victory at the Battle of Signal Hill in Newfoundland in 1762. Some significant French naval victories would also have been needed to secure this territory.

With these four victories, France would have held onto southern Ontario, Quebec, Manitoba, the Maritimes (minus the British Halifax/NS area), all of which are lands France lost due to the Treaty of Paris in 1763. Plus, they'd still own Louisiana.

So, if we assume French dominance of the northern part of North America, there is little chance that the British 13-colonies will revolt against the crown, as they'll be afraid of French invasion. The native populations will be facing entirely different circumstances. Don't forget that living under French colonial rule was quite a bit different than the mostly hands-off, trade-focused approach of British colonial rule.

North American history would be entirely different if french was more dominant in the rest of Canada.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I'm going to talk to the principal of my girls' school tomorrow about moving them to FI in Senior kindergarten this September. One of my daughters is in speech therapy due to some poor English pronunciation abilities, so we'll talk to her speech therapist as well, as we don't want to mess up my daughter's attempts with English by introducing another lingo. I still may go for late immersion in Grade 5. Let's see what they say.