afransen
Senior Member
Do they have a hard time finding qualified math and science teachers?
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Your thoughts on French Immersion?
- Thread starter Admiral Beez
- Start date
Do they have a hard time finding qualified math and science teachers?
Hypnotoad
Senior Member
I wish I had been in French immersion. I am having a difficult time learning French as an adult.
Being able to speak, read and write in both official languages will enable your children a lot of advantages and opportunities in this country and in the province. Unless you children have any learning, attention or hearing problems that might be complicated by a second language, you might want to seriously consider FI. Also, by having an ear for a second language they might be better positioned to pick up a third or forth language in the future -- a great asset in all walks of life.
Being able to speak, read and write in both official languages will enable your children a lot of advantages and opportunities in this country and in the province. Unless you children have any learning, attention or hearing problems that might be complicated by a second language, you might want to seriously consider FI. Also, by having an ear for a second language they might be better positioned to pick up a third or forth language in the future -- a great asset in all walks of life.
syn
Senior Member
The French Immersion kids alway seemed to do better than the Core French bunch, though that doesn't seem to be a common experience here.
If you want them to learn French, get them into immersion. I agree that Core just doesn't work.
Make sure to keep them away from Telefrancais.
If you want them to learn French, get them into immersion. I agree that Core just doesn't work.
Make sure to keep them away from Telefrancais.
Hypnotoad
Senior Member
Hipster Duck
Senior Member
I don't know if this is relevant to the discussion, but one of the reasons why French is so badly taught in our curriculum might have to do with how French is considered uncool by school-age kids. The strongest impetus for kids in continental Europe to learn English is that there is all this "cool" American and British media bombarded at them. When we were in Grade 8, watching Télefrancais or learning about Roch Voisine in our cahiers was the height of lameness. There was a competition amongst us boys to absorb as little French as possible or to butcher le langue de Moliere in the most egregious hoser accent to the constant frustration of our teacher, who was also completely resigned to her job.
H
Hydrogen
Guest
Yeah, French comes with plenty of negative social baggage these days; not sure why. When I was learning French as a kid, we hated it in school; but it came in handy out in the real world (I grew up in Montreal, but on the West Island - which was very Anglo back then). I can only guess that we possessed a bad attitude towards the language because of the political situation of the time and the sense that somehow we were being forced to learn it.
Upon reflection, I found that we spent way to much time carrying out reading and writing exercises in school, and not speaking enough. Kids learn first through speaking and hearing a language, and not through written exercises. The result for me is that I can read French quite well, but have a tougher time hearing it and speaking it. I certainly don't practice enough, either - which is bad if one wants to retain comprehension.
I've noted that in Quebec, the attitude towards English has changed considerably. Among francophones, there used to be an anti-english sentiment that put up a considerable barrier to learning the language for political and cultural reasons. These days there is a much more open attitude towards the practicality of learning English - to the degree that it has once again raised concerns among those concerned with the loss of French culture in that province.
Upon reflection, I found that we spent way to much time carrying out reading and writing exercises in school, and not speaking enough. Kids learn first through speaking and hearing a language, and not through written exercises. The result for me is that I can read French quite well, but have a tougher time hearing it and speaking it. I certainly don't practice enough, either - which is bad if one wants to retain comprehension.
I've noted that in Quebec, the attitude towards English has changed considerably. Among francophones, there used to be an anti-english sentiment that put up a considerable barrier to learning the language for political and cultural reasons. These days there is a much more open attitude towards the practicality of learning English - to the degree that it has once again raised concerns among those concerned with the loss of French culture in that province.
JasonParis
Moderator
Not sending me to French Immersion was perhaps the biggest mistake my parents ever made.
Roy G Biv
Senior Member
I started late immersion in grade 8, and could speak almost fluently after graduating highschool.
Late is the way to go.
6 years later, after not using any French at all, I've "lost it", but know I could get it back with a few months of practicing. I like having that ability in my back pocket.
Late is the way to go.
6 years later, after not using any French at all, I've "lost it", but know I could get it back with a few months of practicing. I like having that ability in my back pocket.
rpgr
Active Member
It doesn't matter what language is being taught or learned, if a student is not using it in everyday situations regularly they will forget it (studies and common-sense show this).
If your kid is going to grow up using it, then it will stick. If not, then it is a waste of time. Of course I could say the same for any number of things.
In the end a kid has enough stuff to do. Let them pick and choose one they really want to persue and let them go for it. If it's playing a musical instrument, tinkering with electronics, computers, another language, whatever.
The worst thing you can do is force a kid to do something they don't want, it's a waste of your time and theirs (when they could instead go out and enjoy life rather than have to re-live mommy and daddys childhood aspirations) .
If your kid is going to grow up using it, then it will stick. If not, then it is a waste of time. Of course I could say the same for any number of things.
In the end a kid has enough stuff to do. Let them pick and choose one they really want to persue and let them go for it. If it's playing a musical instrument, tinkering with electronics, computers, another language, whatever.
The worst thing you can do is force a kid to do something they don't want, it's a waste of your time and theirs (when they could instead go out and enjoy life rather than have to re-live mommy and daddys childhood aspirations) .
Filip
Senior Member
jn_12
Senior Member
I did french immersion in Welland from grade 5 to 12, and have benefited from it significantly since (offered jobs, travel, etc). I found that my friends that were in grade 11 and 12 core french were doing things we had learned in grade 6 or 7. You just can't learn useful french in core french because essentially you're memorizing. You're not conversing, and even if you are, the subject matter is limited. I had to take everything from geography to sociology to philosophy to history in french and there's no way anyone in a grade 12 core french class could pick up even one of my grade 5 text books and read it. You just don't pick up enough of the vocab and grammar.
I'm now 5 years removed from high school and still have about 75% of my french. There is the odd time when I get stumped on finding a word, and perhaps my grammar isn't perfect, but I was able to get by in Paris for a week without any issues, and when I go to Belgium in April, I'm pretty confident I'll be fine. For comparison, my girlfriend who only took core french was lost there and I ended up having to do a lot of the translating for her. I also find that I'm able to pick up and read other languages easier. I might not be able to speak spanish or Italian but based on what I know from french, I can comprehend some of it.
As for quality of student, in my experience the french immersion program in Welland tends to attract the strongest students. To compare, my high school graduating class (85 people, 35 FI, 50 ENG) has more than a half dozen or so people now pursuing Masters degress while the "english" class has one. Also, my friend's sister's FI class which was two years older than us has 10 people who are now in med school.
Personally, I had the choice between a gifted program and FI and I chose FI. Based on those I know that chose the gifted program, I made out far better in the end knowing a second language.
I'm now 5 years removed from high school and still have about 75% of my french. There is the odd time when I get stumped on finding a word, and perhaps my grammar isn't perfect, but I was able to get by in Paris for a week without any issues, and when I go to Belgium in April, I'm pretty confident I'll be fine. For comparison, my girlfriend who only took core french was lost there and I ended up having to do a lot of the translating for her. I also find that I'm able to pick up and read other languages easier. I might not be able to speak spanish or Italian but based on what I know from french, I can comprehend some of it.
As for quality of student, in my experience the french immersion program in Welland tends to attract the strongest students. To compare, my high school graduating class (85 people, 35 FI, 50 ENG) has more than a half dozen or so people now pursuing Masters degress while the "english" class has one. Also, my friend's sister's FI class which was two years older than us has 10 people who are now in med school.
Personally, I had the choice between a gifted program and FI and I chose FI. Based on those I know that chose the gifted program, I made out far better in the end knowing a second language.
C
countbasie
Guest
i don't know if this will help but having finished high school just a few years ago and now being in college i can honestly say i wish my parents would have put me into french immersion.
i often think of moving to montreal and in doing so would want to know french. so i say there is only good that can come from it.
now if your child starts it and doesn't like it or has trouble with his/her academics you can always take them out.
no harm done by trying.
i often think of moving to montreal and in doing so would want to know french. so i say there is only good that can come from it.
now if your child starts it and doesn't like it or has trouble with his/her academics you can always take them out.
no harm done by trying.
afransen
Senior Member
I'm going to stop the suggestion that FI somehow causes superior performance later in life. The sample described above has all kinds of possible confounding factors.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Thanks everyone, I really appreciate your feedback, experience and comments. My wife and I will speak to the teachers again.
Perhaps late immersion is the way to go. Believe it or not, poor expertise in the English language can be quite detrimental; so I adamantly want my girls to be proficient in their mother language. I've been in meetings at work where someone has butchered the language by substituting "good" for "well", such as we did "good" at that project, or he's "doing" good (is he working for a charity, or doing "well"?)...or mixing up affect and effect, or mispronouncing pronunciation as pronounciation, or fare and fair, or confusing their sentence structure, or using nouns as verbs...etc. Sure, we can debate that the language is evolving, never standing still, that usage sets the rules, not rules set the usage, but in real life, if you can't "talk real good", people who can will mark you as such. That, is why I want my girls to know, really know their mother language.
It was only when I started taking Spanish at UofT years back, that I realized how little I knew of my own language and its grammar rules. For example, I didn't have a real understanding of the meanings of grammatical terms such as Article, Adjectives, Adverbs, Disjuncts, Possessive Adjective, Predicative Adjectives, Collocation, Apodosis, Mixed Conditionals, etc... It was only when I learned Spanish that I understood what these terms meant in English. It was embarrassing to have to buy the Oxford Book of English Grammar in order to learn Spanish.
So, I want my girls to have a complete grasp of the technicalities of English, so that when it comes time for them to learn another language, they've got a good foundation in communicative method. The alternative is to learn both English and other languages on the fly, ignoring grammatical rules, and end up appearing like a poor communicator in your own language, plus someone else's.
Perhaps late immersion is the way to go. Believe it or not, poor expertise in the English language can be quite detrimental; so I adamantly want my girls to be proficient in their mother language. I've been in meetings at work where someone has butchered the language by substituting "good" for "well", such as we did "good" at that project, or he's "doing" good (is he working for a charity, or doing "well"?)...or mixing up affect and effect, or mispronouncing pronunciation as pronounciation, or fare and fair, or confusing their sentence structure, or using nouns as verbs...etc. Sure, we can debate that the language is evolving, never standing still, that usage sets the rules, not rules set the usage, but in real life, if you can't "talk real good", people who can will mark you as such. That, is why I want my girls to know, really know their mother language.
It was only when I started taking Spanish at UofT years back, that I realized how little I knew of my own language and its grammar rules. For example, I didn't have a real understanding of the meanings of grammatical terms such as Article, Adjectives, Adverbs, Disjuncts, Possessive Adjective, Predicative Adjectives, Collocation, Apodosis, Mixed Conditionals, etc... It was only when I learned Spanish that I understood what these terms meant in English. It was embarrassing to have to buy the Oxford Book of English Grammar in order to learn Spanish.
So, I want my girls to have a complete grasp of the technicalities of English, so that when it comes time for them to learn another language, they've got a good foundation in communicative method. The alternative is to learn both English and other languages on the fly, ignoring grammatical rules, and end up appearing like a poor communicator in your own language, plus someone else's.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
I guarantee that people substituting "good" for "well" doesn't come because of French Immersion. Your kids will easily pick up English from you, their friends, their hours of English classes, television, etc. The only disadvantage I've ever heard is unfamiliarity with certain terms in math, but I think that's a bit weak since a grasp of mathematics transcends any language.
One of the other tremendous benefits of a good French Immersion program is that they do things like sentence analysis which can be tremendously beneficial to understanding both English and French. They never cover things like syntax and sentence analysis in English classes.
One of the other tremendous benefits of a good French Immersion program is that they do things like sentence analysis which can be tremendously beneficial to understanding both English and French. They never cover things like syntax and sentence analysis in English classes.