Yonge Street, North York Streetscape Improvements

[amnesiajune]

To me, for a street to be considered one of the city's best avenues it has to have, at a minimum:

• Consistently wide sidewalks made of something better than poured concrete riddled with asphalt patches.
• Planting beds and healthy street trees buffering the sidewalk from the traffic lanes. Think Dundas St next to the Eaton Centre or Michigan Ave in Chicago.
• No overhead wires.
• Infrastructure like traffic signals and streetlights that are nicer than the standard suburban design.

That's just off the top of my head. Yonge Street in North York is none of these things.

I can't really think of any street other than St. Clair West that's all of those things, and its sidewalks aren't consistently wide (it can be anywhere from 2 meters to 4 or 5 meters).

Think Dundas St next to the Eaton Centre

Sidewalk is narrow and not buffered, plenty of overheard wires, "standard suburban" traffic lights:

Who cares. FYI, short building do indeed exist here.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.7636...6MJCouuwr48I-qxSJzVA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

And a lot of the highrise buildings are set back on a podium of similar height.

I don't know what height limits there are in this area

I was just making a joke about how many recent developments (Emerald Park, Hullmark Centre, Gibson Centre, 88 Sheppard East, 21 Hillcrest) go to the OMB to get a secondary plan amendment for height limits, and how often those complaints get brought into the ReImagining Yonge discussion (especially by Filion and his anti-OMB colleagues). You can see all the sites that stand out here: https://www1.toronto.ca/planning/8-north-york-centre.pdf

 

[muller877]

But, but, but,... how can that be??? Just look at this "It is not to scale" comparison of 4-lane VS 6-lanes:

See with 4-lanes option, just by converting one little traffic lane to CycleTracks,... we'll get all of that wide pedestrian sidewalk width (already have widest sidewalk in City comparable to University Ave - Hospital Row section!),... with tree-lined curb (already have),... with street furniture (already have),... oh and we'll even get a subway on Yonge (already have!). Why would so many special interest groups from outside the area like CycleToronto with absolutely no local representations be lying to us locals???

To me, for a street to be considered one of the city's best avenues it has to have, at a minimum:

• Consistently wide sidewalks made of something better than poured concrete riddled with asphalt patches.
• Planting beds and healthy street trees buffering the sidewalk from the traffic lanes. Think Dundas St next to the Eaton Centre or Michigan Ave in Chicago.
• No overhead wires.
• Infrastructure like traffic signals and streetlights that are nicer than the standard suburban design.

That's just off the top of my head. Yonge Street in North York is none of these things.

When I walk on Yonge St I agree with sunnyraytoronto. They have oversold the proposal in the diagram.

The majority of the street does have wide sidewalks with planters and/or trees. Plus a median which divides up the traffic so it doesn't look that bad.

Can there be improvement to the pedestrian realm? Yes. Better planting, better maintenance and Toronto Hydro poles being eliminated. But does that need the elimination of a lane of traffic? No.

A secondary question is whether a cycle lane should be created. (my answer...better than on-street parking. Either make it 6 lanes 24/7 or make it 4 + a bike lane) But don't try to sell it as a needed pedestrian improvement.

 

[MisterF]

I can't really think of any street other than St. Clair West that's all of those things, and its sidewalks aren't consistently wide (it can be anywhere from 2 meters to 4 or 5 meters).

Toronto has precious few streets like this, but Queen's Quay comes to mind. So does Bloor through downtown.

Sidewalk is narrow and not buffered, plenty of overheard wires, "standard suburban" traffic lights:
View attachment 133767

When I said Dundas next to the Eaton Centre, I was implying the south side of the street. You can see it in the picture you posted. This is a sidewalk worthy of a great boulevard. The only thing I'd change is sidewalks made of granite or unit pavers, but it's still one of the best ones in Toronto. Why they didn't treat the sidewalk in front of those two newish buildings between Bay and Elizabeth Streets the same way is beyond me.

I was just making a joke about how many recent developments (Emerald Park, Hullmark Centre, Gibson Centre, 88 Sheppard East, 21 Hillcrest) go to the OMB to get a secondary plan amendment for height limits, and how often those complaints get brought into the ReImagining Yonge discussion (especially by Filion and his anti-OMB colleagues). You can see all the sites that stand out here: https://www1.toronto.ca/planning/8-north-york-centre.pdf

Yeah I know, I was just going on a bit of a tangent. I don't like those rinky dink 2-3 storey podiums on such wide streets.

 

[amnesiajune]

A secondary question is whether a cycle lane should be created. (my answer...better than on-street parking. Either make it 6 lanes 24/7 or make it 4 + a bike lane) But don't try to sell it as a needed pedestrian improvement.

6 lanes 24/7 would be terrible. Street parking acts as a traffic calming measure. Without it, the average speed would rise from 50 to 70+. I'd prefer the bike lane over street parking, but street parking is much better than a wide open lane.

I think the important question is why Yonge needs 6 lanes during rush hour when it's effectively only 4 lanes north of Finch - the curb lanes are reserved for buses, taxis and carpools.

Toronto has precious few streets like this, but Queen's Quay comes to mind. So does Bloor through downtown.

Yeah, those two are lovely. But Spadina comes to mind - just like Yonge, it's got six lanes, two in use as parking for most of the street, and a dividing median (streetcars) in the middle. It also has really hideous lights, inconsistently wide sidewalks, lots of overhead wires, and no bike lanes. It's still a really nice street, and so is Yonge. It could use improvements, and so could Yonge, but it's not a "six-lane highway" with "very little in the way of character or soul or connective tissue".

 

[MisterF]

Yeah, those two are lovely. But Spadina comes to mind - just like Yonge, it's got six lanes, two in use as parking for most of the street, and a dividing median (streetcars) in the middle. It also has really hideous lights, inconsistently wide sidewalks, lots of overhead wires, and no bike lanes. It's still a really nice street, and so is Yonge. It could use improvements, and so could Yonge, but it's not a "six-lane highway" with "very little in the way of character or soul or connective tissue".

You think the streetlights on Spadina are hideous? Well not everyone will agree on aesthetics I suppose but I think they look a lot better than the standard suburban style lights on Yonge in NYCC (or Bloor for that matter). Spadina has a much more consistent sidewalk quality, width, and unity in design, especially in the more commercial area south of Spadina Crescent. It lacks wooden utility poles and overhead wires other than streetcar wires. It has decorative streetlights, short blocks, and slow traffic. NYCC, by contrast, has wildly varying sidewalk style, width, and quality because the streetscaping was done in conjunction with individual private developments. It has some really nice stretches and some awful ones, with some sections paved entirely in asphalt. It has overhead power lines mounted on wooden poles (albeit not as bad as some other streets in Toronto). Its traffic lights and crossing opportunities as much as 500 m apart and traffic moves quickly. All these differences add up.

Also, importantly, the architecture on Spadina is far superior in terms of the pedestrian experience. Even after the holes in the streetscape are all filled in, North York will always be hampered by the quality and street level scale of much of the building stock. Spadina is also part of a larger cityscape - you continually run into other interesting streets and neighbourhoods as you walk along it. There's a lot of depth to it. North York is much more linear and one dimensional. These things are beyond the help of any streetscaping project, but they affect the feel of the street in a big way.

 

[11th]

6 lanes 24/7 would be terrible. Street parking acts as a traffic calming measure. Without it, the average speed would rise from 50 to 70+. I'd prefer the bike lane over street parking, but street parking is much better than a wide open lane.

I think the important question is why Yonge needs 6 lanes during rush hour when it's effectively only 4 lanes north of Finch - the curb lanes are reserved for buses, taxis and carpools.

A lot of traffic from the 401 flows north, and probably a lot of people in those NYCC condo drives. Same reason why the plan has 6-lanes from 401 to Sheppard; the closer to the 401, the more traffic.
The ring roads aren't helping because they are lined with public institutions, making them impractical and unsafe to act as proper Yonge bypasses. They need to have that figured out before cutting lanes on Yonge.

 

[amnesiajune]

A lot of traffic from the 401 flows north, and probably a lot of people in those NYCC condo drives. Same reason why the plan has 6-lanes from 401 to Sheppard; the closer to the 401, the more traffic.
The ring roads aren't helping because they are lined with public institutions, making them impractical and unsafe to act as proper Yonge bypasses. They need to have that figured out before cutting lanes on Yonge.

During the busiest hour of the afternoon there are more cars using the four lanes of Yonge between Cummer and Steeles than the six lanes between Finch and Sheppard (here's the city's data on that). So I'm still not really convinced. The six lanes are needed south of Sheppard, but I don't see the need north of there.

 

[amnesiajune]

Also, importantly, the architecture on Spadina is far superior in terms of the pedestrian experience. Even after the holes in the streetscape are all filled in, North York will always be hampered by the quality and street level scale of much of the building stock.

Meh. Speaking personally, I really like that there's a different public space on every other block and the street level scale doesn't feel starved for space.

Spadina is also part of a larger cityscape - you continually run into other interesting streets and neighbourhoods as you walk along it. There's a lot of depth to it. North York is much more linear and one dimensional.

Pretty much every neighbourhood in the city is "linear and one-dimensional", other than Chinatown. But I've never heard someone say "I would go eat Korean food there if there was an Italian neighbourhood around the corner where I can get a cappuccino later".

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Yonge Street is 6 lanes from highway 401 to Steeles. The City traffic volume data includes bus traffic, that's why it's higher between Steeles & Cummer/Drewry just north of Finch Bus Terminal for all the 905 & TTC bus going to Finch terminal subway station.

In addition, City data collected at different time from 2005-2013; North York Centre Secondary Plan Area (Yonge - 401 to Cummer/Drewry) see about 3 new condo towers/year,... thus in the last 10 years, 30 new residential condo towers with about 20,000 new residents for this Vertical Sleeping Community that's not reflected in the City data. Thus, this City data is out of date,...
https://www1.toronto.ca/City Of Toronto/Transportation Services/Road safety/Files/pdf/2013volumemappm.pdf

 

[innsertnamehere]

having the curb lane as an HOV still vastly improves vehicle throughput on the two central lanes as all right turning movements get removed from blocking general lanes, and buses are additionally removed. The capacity difference in terms of a curbside HOV isn't all that different than a curbside general purpose as HOV vehicles tend to use the curb lane anyway. You can see this in York region as most of their 6 lane projects implement curbside HOVs.. Such as on Dufferin from Steeles to the 407. The road operates far, far better today despite it not adding "more lanes".

I expect eglinton through scarborough to operate quite poorly post LRT for this reason - they are cutting the HOV lane.

Auto commuter share in NYCC has been dropping quickly over the past few years.. I believe it is now below 50%. But this is ultimately still a suburban area with a high auto modal share.

Yonge from Steeles to Finch is probably one of the busiest roads in the entire city purely in terms of people throughput - the amount of buses flowing on that stretch is absolutely ridiculous, plus the high vehicle traffic.

 

[amnesiajune]

Auto commuter share in NYCC has been dropping quickly over the past few years.. I believe it is now below 50%. But this is ultimately still a suburban area with a high auto modal share.

It's actually down to below 40%. The Forest Laneway census tract is at 20%, the rest of NYCC is between 30% and 45%.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Looking at percentages is useless,... unless the area's population is stable and fix as if there's a development freeze or this is Detroit! The problem is Willowdale's population grows at about 2% per year and urban growth centre North York Centre Secondary Plan area grows closer to 4% annually,... the focus has to be on actual volume numbers not percentages.

As for local Councillor Filion & Councillor Mammoliti going after each other,....
https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...move-by-local-councillor-to-get-it-built.html

BTW, Yonge won't be getting granite sidewalks like Bloor or QueensQuay,.... just cement with trimming.

 

[Northern Light]

And......another kick at the can coming up; probably the last one.

Hopefully this gets through this time.

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2018.PW27.1

 

[salsa]

"Mayor John Tory is unmoved by arguments from city staff..."

As usual.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...o-drop-opposition-to-yonge-st-bike-lanes.html

 

[bilked]

never one to let data stand in the way of a good argument.

Who elected this guy Mayor of Richmond Hill anyway