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Yonge Express Subway (Y.E.S)

T.O.Fanatic

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All this sounds great, but it seems to me that funding, at least from the Provincial level, is all locked in with the MoveOntario2020 plan........which means Transit City, the Spadina extension to Vaughan and not much else.
 

RedRocket191

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All this sounds great, but it seems to me that funding, at least from the Provincial level, is all locked in with the MoveOntario2020 plan........which means Transit City, the Spadina extension to Vaughan and not much else.
MoveOntario2020 is not a plan. It is a funding vehicle. The RTP is "the plan"
 

Kitsune

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Wasnt there a issue with solid rock under Dundas and College station that made them dig the stations a little higher up then they wanted to? That could cause a huge headache for express tracks.
 
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"The idea of a Yonge Express subway has come up occasionally, but I think the engineering challenge ... would make the line prohibitively expensive
Response: Hence the proposal to have this examined. We should nail down the 'I think'.


"That being said, it's worth pointing out that the Yonge line south of Eglinton is of a completely different character compared to the Yonge line north of Eglinton. North of Eglinton, the Yonge line is essentially an express, with stations spaced over 1 km apart, and subways able to get up to considerable speed. South of Yonge, station distance compresses dramatically, and while south Yonge provides excellent local service in support of the street, it adds travel time for those heading downtown from points further north.

If only we could split the two lines apart, with trains running from Eglinton south providing local service, and Yonge trains from Finch gaining an express run towards the downtown."
Response: This clearly needs a map. Splitting the lines apart just north of Eglinton is exactly the point. The Y.E.S. would run using existing stations from Finch to Lawrence (and from further north if extended) then separate somewhere north of Eglinton to go to new stations at New Eglinton, New Bloor, New Queen, and New Union. Old Eglinton et al keep running as they are today.
 
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Any proposal like this needs to be evaluated against two simple, and related, questions.

1. How much more expensive would it be to build this, than to improve -- physically integrate, electrify, run at express-subway intervals, add a stop at Eglinton, and render similar in all relevant details -- the RH GO line?

2. How many more rides would this attract than would a similarly-outfitted RH GO line (running at similar intervals and speeds and with an Eglinton stop)?

I suspect that the answers to these questions indicate that the RH GO line is the best candidate for a Yonge express line. The key difference is that it is, obviously, more east-end-skewed. However, would any disadvantages that flow from that not be made up for by significant cost savings?"
Response: Agree entirely, the point is to have someone (Metrolinx?) develop this beyond a blog thread and look at those two questions. Until some analysis is done we're just guessing.
 
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In reply to Prosperegal's, "Let me get this straight. The YES will stop at every station until Eglinton, which will then skip stations? Will it run on the same track until Lawrence?"
__________________
As I responded to James Bow, this suggestion clearly needs a map. Splitting the lines apart just north of Eglinton is exactly the point. The Y.E.S. would run using existing stations from Finch to Lawrence (and from further north if extended) then separate somewhere north of Eglinton to go to new stations at New Eglinton, New Bloor, New Queen, and New Union. Old Eglinton et al keep running as they are today.

Or in other words, the YES _will_ stop at every station _from Finch_ until _before_ Eglinton, which will then skip stations? Will it run on the same track until _after_ Lawrence? _Yes_
 
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Wasnt there a issue with solid rock under Dundas and College station that made them dig the stations a little higher up then they wanted to? That could cause a huge headache for express tracks.
Response: The original Yonge Line was build shallow to save cost but also to allow for easy/fast access to the street and transfers to streetcars. Queen and Dundas were build without mezzanines for just those reasons. In the whole original line only Union, King, and Eglinton have mezzanines (I think, since from West Toronto Junction I don't actually use the Yonge line very much).

The late 1940's design is so different from the 1970's design of the "North Yonge Extension" aka Lawrence to Finch.
 

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For now, I think that it's only really necessary to build express tracks between Union and Eglinton. If New York is used to define express vs. local service, then the station spacing north of Eglinton is already defined as express. However, if the city decides to develop midtown Yonge, then perhaps add express tracks right up to the Hogg's Hollow Loblaws, but also add 6 new local stations every 500m between Eglinton and Hogg's Hollow. Personally, I'd like to see all subway stations 500m apart on all lines, but with express stations every 2000m.

I disagree with the proposed stations though. I think that express stations should be located at Eglinton, St. Clair, Bloor, Dundas, King, and Union.

As for GO trains, I believe that they serve a totally different market and are by no means a substitute for express subways. In my opinion, a key purpose of express tracks is to improve the quality of transit service offered to the local, inner city market - not to speed up suburb to downtown travel. Express tracks would allow inner city residents to do their grocery shopping faster, go to the bank faster, or perhaps to get to High Park faster. In general (but not in the case of the Yonge extension for reasons discussed elsewhere), the GO train offers the best way to get to your downtown job quickly from the suburbs.
 

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The benefits of this project I think are far outweighed by the costs. Why so much effort to give people in the north end a fast subway ride to downtown? If they want fast, that's what GO is for. Spending the money on the DRL makes far more sense, and serves new riders and builds a bigger network.
Couldn't agree more. Spending billions on building a new subway directly underneath or beside an existing one when most of the city is embarrassingly deprived of rapid transit seems like the biggest waste of money imaginable. It's bizarre that there's even a thread on this.

Bring on the swan boats.
 

dunkalunk

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There's always bay street south of Bloor. North of bloor, passing tracks can always be built on the existing line if necessary, if it is at all necessary with construction of the DRL.
 
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golodhendil

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UT seems to be attracting a spate of pie-in-the-sky thinking lately. Must be something in the sidewalk salt.

42
It's so comforting to see our mods making snide comments like that.

In any case, around where I am they throw sand on the sidewalk, not salt. So perhaps you need to come up with another explanation.
 

golodhendil

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At least no one here is proposing nuclear powered buses or something.
You mean (trolley-)buses that operate on electricity generated by nuclear power? We have those. Or if you mean buses that could one day use portable nuclear batteries such as these, these or these, sure why not, the technology is certainly being actively researched right now. But it probably has too much vision for UT. Or people would probably jump on it and want the research funding spent on more impending social issues.
 

drum118

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"

Response: Agree entirely, the point is to have someone (Metrolinx?) develop this beyond a blog thread and look at those two questions. Until some analysis is done we're just guessing.
To electrify the line, we are looking at $5m/km for 2 tracks that inculdes substations.

To upgrade the RH line itself, $850m including grade separation. This also includes 4 new stations.

Rolling stock using EMU $200m

Cost to build another Subway 32.3km * $350/km is $11.3B for numbers. No land or complex to store the trains included and that an extra cost.

Therefore, far cheaper to upgrade the RH even if it cost an extra Billion to fix the line to have 3 tracks than to build a new Yonge subway.

You are far better off building another line like the Don Mills and Jane to catch the riders before hitting Yonge doing a U. It will leave room for riders who will be living along Yonge St over time.
 

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