World class, eh?

[tudararms]

"The problem there is that you're stooping to the kind of "we're better than you" argument that, in all honesty, we shouldn't be stooping to. (Especially as it's better off as a both/and than an either/or argument.)"

I agree Adma. I'm guilty of forcing a point. Is the Golden Gate more unique or worthwhile than the CN Tower? Who knows and who really cares? However, to say that Toronto has nothing unique or worthwhile seeing or doing does strike me as silly.

 

[andreapalladio]

You're the only person who has said anything like that.

 

[SD2]

Andrea, what do your friends like? What interests them (besides opera)?

I have a hard time believing there's nothing they'd enjoy here.

 

[building babel]

ap: They'd like me. To know me is to love me. I'll take them off your hands for a few days - and take them places, and show them things, that'll make the few remaining hairs on their heads stand on end.

 

[andreapalladio]

Well, one is a writer, the other works in marketing. They've been before, so they've seen the CN Tower and what not. They refuse to stay in Cabbagetown with friends, and not because they dislike Cabbagetown. One of them grew up in upstate New York, and so has seen Niagara Falls more than enough. They hate malls, and while they like the concept of Holts, there is better shopping in SF than they can find here. I suspect we will do a lot of eating. I may also take them skating.

 

[building babel]

If they're here for Faust the COC orchestra will be conducted by Yannick Nezet-Seguin, who wins critical acclaim wherever he goes. Musicians and singers love working with him, and every audience I've been in when he's conducted is transported by the performance.

 

[ganjavih]

In great cities, you don't need to rely on landmarks or festivals (although they're important). You should be able to just walk the streets and be wowed.

I think it was Hume who said, it's not the landmarks that we need help with, it's the stuff in between... the stuff that makes up the fabric of the city.

 

[building babel]

I thought it was Adam Smith.

 

[andreapalladio]

No, Smith's great line was "Shit happens".

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"I think it was Hume who said, it's not the landmarks that we need help with, it's the stuff in between... the stuff that makes up the fabric of the city."

And some disagree completely with that statement...that's Toronto. It's also impossible to compare Toronto with London or New York in this way because almost everything between their landmarks is also a landmark. Other "world class" cities invariably seem to be revered by locals/nationals a heck of a lot more than Toronto is revered by Torontonians/Canadians.

This whole debate could be put on the backburner for about 5-10 years. By then, we'll have a whole set of refurbished cultural institutions and we'll be (hopefully) working our way towards a better waterfront, meaning we could be approaching the "how to make Toronto world class" problem from an entirely different perspective. These projects may not turn out to be landmarks but mere fabric improvers...if so, our landmark-to-fabric ratio would surely be amongst the highest of any world class wannabe city (edit - except, perhaps, for a few places like Barcelona and Sydney...the CN Tower, Sagrada Familia, and Opera House probably cancel each other out, yet it'll be difficult to become a more viable tourist destination than cities like these solely by accumulating landmarks). I don't think our urban fabric is in bad shape at all, there's just maintainance issues. Why not improve both the urban fabric and our landmark stock so that all tourists and, more importantly, the people who live here, are satisfied?

 

[bizorky]

I don't think anybody is suggesting avoiding the building of a landmark structures - should the opportunity arise. But it is most certainly the stuff in between that knits the whole fabric together. The stuff in between might be a thousand little things, like maintained side walks, or planters, or burried utilities. It may very well include encouraging building owners to improve their properties, and generating civic pride among citizens. It could also include getting developers to put up buildings that will meet the street in a welcoming and useful way. Or the stuff in between might consist of well-maintained parks, of filling in bland gaps in the urban fabric, or building structures or resources that are attractive to residents and visitors alike. The city should be easy to get around in and built upon its vibrant neighbourhoods. It should not be reticent or ashamed to talk about its stories, or history or anecdotes. If it really is a city with an interest in the arts, they we should see and hear it every possible opportunity. It should look good, look vibrant, and look inviting. That will interst visitors because it will be a city that its residents enjoy.

 

[tudararms]

Toronto seems to be missing that one, internationally recognized, 'must see' site or attraction. Is it possibly the CN Tower? Could Niagara Falls be considered that site? If not, what could it be?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"I don't think anybody is suggesting avoiding the building of a landmark structures - should the opportunity arise. But it is most certainly the stuff in between that knits the whole fabric together."

Should the opportunity arise, of course, but, as tudararms hints at, should we be making a concerted effort to build one landmark to rule them all or do we already have it? Might our urban fabric already be it? The majority of our fabric stuff is fine...however the maintainance of said stuff is another issue - we need campaign that's exponentially more comprehensive than "Clean & Beautiful" and some civic pride to go along with it. As you say, it's the little things. There's really not much litter on our streets, which makes any quantity of garage seem unbearable. Surely we can do the little things like contain our primal urge to throw plastic onto concrete or coordinate utility repairs with sidewalk repairs, because if we can't, we're going to need a bigger CN Tower...

 

[SD2]

The city should be easy to get around in and built upon its vibrant neighbourhoods. It should not be reticent or ashamed to talk about its stories, or history or anecdotes. If it really is a city with an interest in the arts, they we should see and hear it every possible opportunity. It should look good, look vibrant, and look inviting. That will interst visitors because it will be a city that its residents enjoy.

Well said.

Building landmarks for the sake of building landmarks is kind of pointless.

 

[adma]

One other thing we *must* keep in mind is that in light of war, strife, peak oil, etc, we might as well be seeing the end run for tourism-for-its-own-sake, and the rather superficial expectations that generates.

Which might, indeed, be terrific for places like Toronto which are far more supple at the subtleties of "domestic tourism" than at pitching to the banal "tour bus" crowd...